Ep 184: Navigating Multilingual Worlds and Career Paths ft Claire Murigande

Raphael Harry [00:00:00]:
Hey, everybody. Rafael Harry here. You're listening to White Label American. On this show, we dive into unique and diverse origin stories from immigrants and allies. Join us weekly as we break barriers, connect the past with the present, and peek into the future. Welcome to another episode of white label American. Thank you all for joining us today, newcomers, all time listeners, and shout out to our newest member on Patreon. I believe Patreon has been having a new upgrade to their system, so I wasn't even aware that I had a new member join.

Raphael Harry [00:00:52]:
I think she's been with us for about 3 weeks. So feel free to reach out to me if you need, you know, if you have any questions or any concerns. Yeah. Reach out. I always like hearing from, new members because I don't know this person, brand new person entirely. So it's first time I've had someone like that join on Patreon because I literally know almost everybody who has been supporting on, Patreon. So it's I'm very glad to have, someone brand new out of my, yeah, out of my, influence. So, yeah, it's very it's very, encouraging.

Raphael Harry [00:01:31]:
So it means I've been doing something correctly, I guess. Yeah. Woo hoo. So with that being said, let's, get to meet today's guest. I am very honored to have you know, we only have distinguished and, you know, top of the top guests here. But today, I'm literally telling you, we have somebody who I've been trying to get this guest for some time, and first time I heard her speak, I was like, oh, wow. Now what? We gotta get this person. And she's yeah.

Raphael Harry [00:02:03]:
Yeah. You gotta you gotta you gotta hear from her. When you hear from her, you know. You know? She's fluent in 5 languages. She's been, on TEDx. She has a PhD in biology, executive MBA in digital lead leadership, captivating speaker, outstanding moderator, multi award nominated podcast host, career in in the life sciences industry. Hey. There's plenty more, but you you love her because I I love her stuff, and I've listened to her podcast.

Raphael Harry [00:02:32]:
So with that being said, let's get to meet today's guest, doctor Claire Murigandy. Welcome to the show. How are you doing today?

Dr Claire Murigande [00:02:40]:
Hi, Rafael. Thank you so much for having me. I'm doing great.

Raphael Harry [00:02:44]:
Yes. The honor's all mine, and, please kindly let the audience know about your podcast before we dive into your origins.

Dr Claire Murigande [00:02:53]:
Cool. Thank you. Well, my podcast, is called narratives of purpose, and I've been running it for almost 4 years now, three and a half years. So I started in December 2020. So, obviously, like everybody knows, it was in the middle of the pandemic, and I guess I was not the first person to start a podcast during the pandemic.

Raphael Harry [00:03:12]:
But many of them didn't survive.

Dr Claire Murigande [00:03:15]:
Well, I'm still here. And, and basically the the the story behind the idea I had was, you know, coming back to the pandemic and all this bad news running around everywhere and felt like it's just doom and gloom everywhere. And in my own network but also people that I was following, I actually saw more positive things happening. I thought why not create a platform to just share those stories and those those individual journeys because I also think that, you know, for me audio is, very powerful medium.

Raphael Harry [00:03:51]:
Yes.

Dr Claire Murigande [00:03:52]:
Radio, I mean, podcasting, don't get me started on that, I mean, I don't know how many podcasts I listen to. And in radio, it's like every day whether I'm driving or even at home, whatever I'm doing, there's always some sound, music, it's the same thing. So I thought, you know, instead of writing a blog or doing something different where I would actually tell people stories because I found what they were doing was really amazing. I thought, okay, let me have them on my show that I will create actually. So create this platform and let them tell their stories. And basically, I would be amplifying those voices and bringing those, I like to call them impactful stories because these are stories of, you know, social impact. So people who are taking it upon themselves to change things in society because it's not working for everyone but then they're working on solutions. That's basically the whole idea behind the podcast.

Dr Claire Murigande [00:04:42]:
I've been doing that for, like I said, three and a half years. I've had it's biweekly and I've had a few breaks in between. So I think now is the 6th season and I've had 70 episodes. And we've had topics going from health equity to youth empowerment, sustainability, and so on and so forth. And my guests are really from all over the place. I mean Africa, North America, Europe, Asia, South Asia.

Raphael Harry [00:05:06]:
Oh, yeah.

Dr Claire Murigande [00:05:06]:
I haven't spoken to anyone in Australia and South America, but maybe it'll come soon.

Raphael Harry [00:05:10]:
Oh, okay. I I might Yeah. Well, I know somebody in Australia. You need someone there. But yeah. I'm I I know you will because I I've I've listened to a couple of episodes, and the diversity is one of the things that impressed me about the podcast and not just the diversity of the guests, the diversity of topics covered, and diversity of languages spoken on the on the podcast too. Yes.

Dr Claire Murigande [00:05:32]:
So Yes. Yes.

Raphael Harry [00:05:33]:
I was the first time I listened to a podcast in German, and I was like, oh, yeah. I know I need to be doing this on my phone. So Do

Dr Claire Murigande [00:05:40]:
you speak German, by the way?

Raphael Harry [00:05:41]:
We'll we'll find out one day. Like, people got I think I won't let freeloaders get that access right now. I don't want the CIA at that point.

Dr Claire Murigande [00:05:53]:
But but basically, them them

Raphael Harry [00:05:54]:
Ambition. That's all I'll tell you.

Dr Claire Murigande [00:05:57]:
Yeah. But the language is in English. And because in Switzerland, where I'm based, we actually have, I was talking to a producer before you joined, we have 4 official national languages. Yeah. But, I only speak half of them, so French and German. Right. And I thought for one of the series, because I was talking to people within, you know, their local regions, I thought why don't do the interviews in the language because I guess it's always better than having to do it in English.

Raphael Harry [00:06:23]:
Yeah. But that that's that's, but that's a good way to reach out to people and to I think it makes the communicating more authentic, you know, because it's how it's it makes people open up to you and people listening also pay more attention when they see, oh, okay. This person, you know, there's something I don't know. It feels there's something more genuine, you know, when people see that, oh, okay. This person made that effort to reach out on the. Okay. The people opened up and okay. I I pay more attention.

Raphael Harry [00:06:59]:
You know? It's just something that, I I have my own way of making people open up to me. I don't know. Superpower, I guess, Except when it comes to the wallet. We'll figure it out on me, but we're getting there. So how how did you settle on the the title of your podcast? How did you pick that name?

Dr Claire Murigande [00:07:18]:
That's a good question. So, I mean, like you said before, you know, I have a scientific background. So my my rationale, if you will, was to, like, okay. Let me go through my, Apple Podcasts, you know, app and see all the different titles, what is recurring, what is not, and what is because I had an idea, but I was like, okay, let me type in that idea and see if something already exists. Obviously, many things exist because I wanted to be around people, stories, and I think there was something else purpose, I think. Exactly. Right?

Raphael Harry [00:07:51]:
Yeah.

Dr Claire Murigande [00:07:51]:
And I was like, oh, cool. That's 3 p's. People purpose, you know. And then and then the thing is that there's really lots of things that exist. And at some point, I just started saying, okay. Let me try and see how I can play around with a few words. And now that I think of it, because I obviously podcasting for a while and being also in different collectors and communities, a friend of mine who is also a podcaster recently refreshed her brand and changed the name. And she was like, oh, and I used AI and all these things.

Dr Claire Murigande [00:08:22]:
I'm like, oh my gosh. That was just 4 years ago that I started. I didn't Yeah. Even AI was not that powerful enough for me to type in a few things, and then it comes up with a name with even a logo or something. Mhmm. And I was like, my goodness. That that sounds so easy, but then maybe I would have too much choice to choose from. So it was very, I would say, you know, incremental.

Dr Claire Murigande [00:08:43]:
Just looking around, what exists, what's there, which made me also discover a few podcasts that I started following and then I said okay no I don't want to lead to this like this and so on so I just kind of narrowed down to narratives because I really wanted the word purpose in there. Just to make to show that you know whatever your background, whatever you have done, once you realize, okay, this is where I can make a difference, it's basically becoming your purpose somehow. Right?

Raphael Harry [00:09:11]:
Yes.

Dr Claire Murigande [00:09:11]:
So I wanted to have that word and and the narrative somehow, to be honest, I don't recall how it came up, but I was kind of playing around with stories. And someone told me actually, 2 years ago, I said, oh, do you know the difference between stories and narratives? I'm like, no. What's the difference? He said, well, anybody can tell a story, like, you can even make up a story, but your narratives belongs to only you if you tell the story. I'm, like, oh, that's great, actually. It works pretty well with my podcast. I had no idea. Right? Like you know when you speak about changing the narrative and the stories that you're told. So now I'm a bit more conscious when I use the word stories and narratives.

Raphael Harry [00:09:47]:
So all right.

Dr Claire Murigande [00:09:48]:
That that's a bit the backstory of the title.

Raphael Harry [00:09:51]:
Okay. Let's go to your origins to the very beginning. You got 2 beautiful names. Oh, maybe more than 2 beautiful names. I know of 2. What's the meaning of your names, and is there a story behind how you came to have the names that you do?

Dr Claire Murigande [00:10:12]:
Well, so my last name is actually my father's name.

Raphael Harry [00:10:15]:
Mhmm.

Dr Claire Murigande [00:10:16]:
I guess, like, you know, in many places today that's the name you get, right? Your family name is the father's name. And my first name is actually a French name or at least from it's Francophone name, Claire. And as far as I know, again, this is what I was told. You know, I didn't really look into it. But I was told that when I was born, I had pretty fair skin, and that's why they call me Claire. Claire is mean, like, you know, it's it's what's actually I don't even know what's the, equivalent in in English, you would say, because Claire is also an adjective in French. It's not only a name, a noun. It's also an adjective.

Dr Claire Murigande [00:10:54]:
Right? So which means, yeah, fair or clear or clear or something like that. And that's what I was told, like, a very very long time ago. And I just, you know, it's suddenly in my mind and that's that's how it is. So I never asked any further. But interesting that you ask is about the names is there's there's this tradition or at least, culturally speaking. So my my parents are originally from Rwanda. It's a small country in East Africa. And there's the way the names are given, basically, like Clare.

Dr Claire Murigande [00:11:28]:
Again, this is my interpretation. Clare is, like, the Christian name. Right? Because, like, whether it's my parents or my uncles, you know, cousins and so on, everybody has a Christian name. And then the last name, we actually don't have the, like, family name. That's not in the culture. Everybody has their own name. Right?

Raphael Harry [00:11:46]:
Okay.

Dr Claire Murigande [00:11:47]:
And so if I look at my uncles or my my aunts and so on, they don't have the same name as my father. So everybody has their own name. Oh. And that's why I say Muriganda is my father's name because he's the actually the only one in the family to carry that name. His brothers have different names because that's what that's the given name was the name they give you. And then obviously through colonisation and everything and today They will say in the US. I say you call it middle name and here's like the second, you know, given They will say in the US, I say you call it middle name, and here's, like, the second, you know, given name. But I don't have that.

Dr Claire Murigande [00:12:30]:
I just have a first name and then the last name, which is the family name. And, basically, it's my father's name.

Raphael Harry [00:12:36]:
Oh, fascinating. Oh, I I think you might be the first person I've interviewed who yeah. Whose culture has something like that where it's each person has their own name, and it goes on from there. I'm like, ah, I'm I'm trying to recollect right now. Yeah. I think I've heard that before. So it's it's I'm just blown away by that. Yeah.

Raphael Harry [00:13:05]:
It's it's it's beautiful. It is beautiful. So, do you know the meaning of Morigandey?

Dr Claire Murigande [00:13:14]:
I don't know. I don't even

Raphael Harry [00:13:17]:
Oh, it's okay if you don't have it right now, but it's I I I love asking because there's, you know, the reason why that became a mainstay question on this podcast is how it's fascinating how many cultures you found, are intertwined or how people are related to other people just from that question. I I never thought I would get that. And, you know, and there are so many things that just come out from asking that question just like you've shown me right now. You know, I wasn't expecting to hear that, it's it's your father's literally your father's name. So if I'm like, wow.

Dr Claire Murigande [00:13:55]:
The name is the family name. Right? I mean, it makes sense, like, from a European perspective or western because it's the family name and that's how society is structured today. You have a family name. Right? Whether you take your father's or you I mean, your mother's. I don't know. Some some some people when they get married, they would then take, like, the wife's name, I suppose. Yeah.

Raphael Harry [00:14:13]:
My cousin just It it does happen,

Dr Claire Murigande [00:14:15]:
but it's not very common.

Raphael Harry [00:14:16]:
Yeah. Yeah. It's yeah. I mean I mean yeah. But but even even in Nigeria, there are people who do that, take the the wife's name. I mean, it's an agreement between it's 2 people getting married, and it's

Dr Claire Murigande [00:14:28]:
an agreement. But in the end, it's just one name. Right? Not everyone keeps their name. And that's the family name, and that's, I suppose, what the children inherit in the end as well.

Raphael Harry [00:14:37]:
Well, yeah. Even I think all over the world, it's still it's I'm I'm in the the most popularized to go with Europe, but, I think from every culture that I've seen, it's usually, there's usually a family name and Mhmm. Everybody falls on that whichever family you got married to. It's already the man, and you fall on that branch of the family. But except when you're married into a wealthier woman's family, powerful woman's family, then sometimes the rules change. It's like, okay. We can change

Dr Claire Murigande [00:15:10]:
the rules. Okay. Is that what happens in Nigeria?

Raphael Harry [00:15:15]:
I've I've seen things. I'm I'm I'm that's kind of why I'm mischievous sometimes. I'm I'm like, rules can bend in some cases. And then I've seen people who it seems like there's genuine, respect for each other, and it's like, I don't care. I'll take my wife's name. I'm like, oh. And then I have a cousin who he but he's English and, born and raised. And he just took his wife's name, but she is from, she has Brazilian roots.

Dr Claire Murigande [00:15:42]:
Mhmm.

Raphael Harry [00:15:43]:
So it's he's much younger than I am. Almost almost half, my my age, and he just took his wife's name. And although it's, my last name is Harry, and he's now a Harry Dasilva. And I was I was I'm like, oh, that's fine when he, you know, when he told me about jokes for him, but, you know, but it was just between us. And when I was telling my mom that he took her name, what? Why? I'm like, really? You're gonna bring that up? Am am I not after my my name? Because I'm after my grandfather. I was named after my grandfather. I just took I'm not named after my dad. So if we are going to go that route, I'm not the if we are doing the naming thing and the legitimacy and all that, I'm a bastard.

Raphael Harry [00:16:37]:
You know? By the way people say it, so I'm I'm a bastard if we're going that route. So, yeah, I don't have my father's name, my biological father's name. I don't have that recognition. So I'm after my grandfather. That's who I'm named after. That's where my structure comes from. My whole name in Lino. And so I'm like, wow.

Raphael Harry [00:16:56]:
So why are you mad that my cousin took his wife's name? You shouldn't be angry, but it's, you know, so that's why I'm like, yeah. Well, it's easier to say it's we will all go with European and all that, but I'm like, there are certain times when the rules have been bent, you know, and we don't ask why. It's just like we just go with it and then you know? But I'm like, ugh. I don't know. When you get older, you look and like, hey. Wait. Wait. When did this rule? Who saw this person? What is the other name he could have had? And then you're like, oh.

Raphael Harry [00:17:27]:
Mhmm. And you're like, you asked many questions. Just go. Go. Keep quiet. I'm like, okay. So but yeah. So when I bring up that you know, my kid is getting older and, you know, I've I've already written down certain things.

Raphael Harry [00:17:42]:
And when she get older, she gets I will explain to her that, look. There's a version of your dad that could have had this name, and your name would have not been Harry, that you would have been named this. And, you know and so, and then when when I tell people that, yeah, I'm I'm a liter I'm a bastard, and they're like, what? I'm like, yeah. That was actually the insults I used to get as a kid. You know? There was a when I was 6 around 6 between 6 and 8, that was the one of the first times I knew I was hurt without being beaten by other children was, when playing with kids, and for some reason, the kids just stopped and yeah. We noticed that every time, you know, we get mad or you know, there's a moment when kids are playing and it there's this point in time when they they're like, oh, you you you threatened me or you did something to me. I'll go get my dad. And when it gets to your turn, you always say I'm gonna get my uncle.

Raphael Harry [00:18:43]:
You never say you're getting your dad. Why? And I had no no no reason. No excuse. And I thought about it. I was like, I don't know. I'd be like, you must be a bastard. That's why you keep saying that. So I started crying, and I went home.

Raphael Harry [00:18:59]:
And, you know, when I asked, they were like, shut up. You know? Don't you have food to eat? Don't you have, roof over your head? Why do you ask him so many questions? Shut up. Go go sit down somewhere. Don't fall. Go kneel down. Go kneel down. Pray to Jesus to forgive you. Just and that's, like, the beginning of asking questions, and then with time, you just learn to shut up until you get older.

Raphael Harry [00:19:18]:
And then you're like, hey. Wait a minute. You you you didn't ask me when I asked that question back then.

Dr Claire Murigande [00:19:23]:
Exactly.

Raphael Harry [00:19:23]:
They're like, you never asked me.

Dr Claire Murigande [00:19:24]:
Back and realize. Yeah.

Raphael Harry [00:19:26]:
You never asked no questions with gaslights. But, one thing I wanted to point out, that I I I found interesting about your name is Claire. Your name might have your name might be similar to my daughter's name. Well, in in Nigerian speak, we'll say English name. My daughter's, one of my daughter's name is Clara. Oh. In in the in the, with the German spelling of k. Okay.

Raphael Harry [00:19:56]:
Not c. And

Dr Claire Murigande [00:19:58]:
So I guess it's the it's the same it's the same origin. It's the same meaning, I

Raphael Harry [00:20:02]:
Yes. Yeah. I just thought about that. You know, you was pointing out Claire, and I was like, oh, okay. Yeah. So Clara might be from the same family tree.

Dr Claire Murigande [00:20:11]:
I think so.

Raphael Harry [00:20:12]:
Claire. So Yeah. Yeah. Oh, because yeah. As soon as, her mom picked the name, I was like, okay. Now I gotta know the meaning of the name before you go too far with that because that's me. I always know meaning of names.

Dr Claire Murigande [00:20:24]:
And what did you find it to be then, the meaning of the name?

Raphael Harry [00:20:27]:
Claire. Oh. Yeah. But she was named after her, maternal great grandmother.

Dr Claire Murigande [00:20:36]:
Okay.

Raphael Harry [00:20:36]:
Yeah. That's why her mom picked that name, and then my mom picked her traditional, name. So so that's where her names come from. You know? So, yeah, it's beautiful. And, I was like, oh, you see another connection. Claire, Clara. I've never made that connection in the past before.

Dr Claire Murigande [00:21:00]:
Well, here it is.

Raphael Harry [00:21:01]:
There you go. That's why I love that question, and anybody who comes to the podcast will always get that question. That's like a cheat question. People can you know, you can prepare ahead of time, but, hey. I'll still find a way to twist it and then hit you. Pow. And you'll be like, oh, yep. There you go.

Raphael Harry [00:21:17]:
So, you've already given us a little bit of this, like, a little answer to this question. But for the sake of the audience, can you introduce introduce us to your place of birth and what your childhood was like?

Dr Claire Murigande [00:21:35]:
So I I was born in, Burundi. So that's in East Africa. And if I recall properly up until the age of 3 or something, my my family moved to Kenya and that's where I grew up. So I was, so because we came from, a French speaking country back then, so it was a Belgian colony. So the the the main language was French. We were in a French school in in Kenya, in Nairobi. And that's where I grew up. That's where I kind of made my first, you know, memories and first taste in food.

Dr Claire Murigande [00:22:07]:
I was talking about food and things and, you know, the environment before my family moved to Switzerland. So my childhood basically was in Kenya and, I guess that's why lots of people and just what you said before are surprised, impressed, or amazed, I don't know what you how you want to call it, about the diversity of the guests that I speak to. Because for me, it's it's just absolutely normal. I've always been in environments where people come from everywhere, People are going everywhere. People speak many languages and people have this ability to just understand different environments because their own backgrounds is already so diverse, if you will. Mhmm. And and that's where I lived, you know, I was in a I think I was in French school and one of my brothers was in an English speaking school. So and those were not the local languages.

Dr Claire Murigande [00:23:00]:
Mhmm. The local language was Swahili even though there's so many other different languages, you know. And we were speaking Kinyarwani at home. So that gives you a way of, you know, an idea of how I guess how as a child your brain can be also very exposed to different things. And then moving to Switzerland, obviously, I was in the French speaking part, so which was easy because school was already in French. I didn't have to adapt in that sense. But then the first thing I learned was a new language. It was German, you know? And the way my brain worked was like, oh, these words are quite similar to English.

Dr Claire Murigande [00:23:35]:
This is going to be easy to learn. Which for people who grew up in Geneva or in other parts of the country, like, oh, but Germany is so difficult. And because, like, I had been exposed to all this, I could easily move from one to another. And I felt that even being in Geneva, so many, you know, friends of mine at school, they would they were also from different places. Whether it's on the African continent, in Europe, Spain, Italy, whatever. We even had, like, in school kids from Russia. And this is something that always impressed me that because we would have school, I think, Monday through Wednesday and then Friday. There was like one day or one afternoon off during the week.

Dr Claire Murigande [00:24:14]:
And then they would go to school, but like Russian school. And I was like, oh, you learn Russian? No, no, no. We kind of like do the normal curriculum but in Russian.

Raphael Harry [00:24:22]:
Oh.

Dr Claire Murigande [00:24:22]:
So I was like, all these different I mean, for for me, it was just normal to have people who have different perspectives on life, different, you know, various culture. I don't know how to say different because different is always compared to something else, but all this variety of culture, whether it's language, whether it's, you know, the what you eat, even though, you know, if you look at food properly, many things are similar. Just maybe you don't use the same ingredients, you know?

Raphael Harry [00:24:47]:
That's true.

Dr Claire Murigande [00:24:48]:
So I guess my my, you know, in a nutshell my childhood was quite, interesting in the sense that there was, you know, lots of I was exposed to many different people and many different, yeah, cultures I would say and living in 2 different countries as well was something interesting I have to say. Wow.

Raphael Harry [00:25:08]:
So what what age were you when you arrived in Switzerland?

Dr Claire Murigande [00:25:13]:
I was 12 11 or 12, I think. Yeah.

Raphael Harry [00:25:17]:
Okay.

Dr Claire Murigande [00:25:18]:
So sort of like my start of my teenage years are here in in Europe in Switzerland.

Raphael Harry [00:25:22]:
Alright.

Dr Claire Murigande [00:25:23]:
Yeah.

Raphael Harry [00:25:23]:
Wow. Okay. It makes sense why a lot of people send their kids to Switzerland for schooling. I know I know the schools are pretty good over there, and then they also have some expensive schools for people who are loaded. But, yeah, it does make sense. The exposure to, other cultures, you know, and yeah. It it does make sense because I I don't think I've I think I've only thought about it like, oh, rich people just send their keys to Switzerland. That and if you let just think of it from that point of view, then it's like, oh, that's a place for wealthy people to just send their kids.

Raphael Harry [00:26:04]:
And then but if you think about exposing the the children to other cultures and people, it also adds another dimension to the educational system in Mhmm. Switzerland.

Dr Claire Murigande [00:26:21]:
And I think that's anyway, I suppose, I mean, again, I if you're in a private setting or private school wherever you go in the world, I I would imagine that in any case you're exposed to many different people, right? Because as you say the wealthy you are, you know, and that's probably the image you have of a Swiss and I guess the, you know, like the most expensive schools. But just for clarification, I was actually in a public school because when my family moved here I was no longer I mean I was in a public school so when I say I had friends from, you know, from Sri Lanka, from Ethiopia, from from, I don't know, Peru, Italy, you name it, Portugal, this is really public school, you know. This is like, I guess there's the social, the population that was in Geneva. And because also Geneva is quite international, so you would also have those private schools. Whether it's, you know, people put their kids in private school or not, you are anyway exposed to that, cultural diversity anyway. Right? Yeah. So yeah.

Raphael Harry [00:27:28]:
So and, also, another thing I noticed, I think yeah. I never thought about it, but I've had a couple of people who've been through Kenya in in their lives, you know, growing up, lived in Kenya, and, there's 1 or 2 of them that I I will introduce you to, after this recording. I think you you would like to interview them. And, yeah, I never just thought about it that somebody could go go to school in Kenya and get educated in French. It's just it's like yeah. I was just like, oh, yeah. Swahili, English. Yes.

Raphael Harry [00:28:10]:
French, I'm like, oh, wait a minute. It's like the first time. Time. So my brain is still, like, going in circles. Like, wait. Wow. French.

Dr Claire Murigande [00:28:19]:
Yeah. Those are the I think it's still there. There there's a French school there.

Raphael Harry [00:28:23]:
Yeah. That it's prob that that I know that I know that but, naturally, there's a French school in Lagos. And

Dr Claire Murigande [00:28:29]:
You see?

Raphael Harry [00:28:30]:
I I just, you know, I so yeah. Sometimes, yeah, it is good to not be ignorant. Because I actually have gone past that school, and you I don't know. It's just like you don't think about certain things. Like, you're like, oh, French school. But it's like, oh, school from with French teaching, but they will teach you in English. I don't know why. I just put that in my brain, and you don't think about certain things.

Raphael Harry [00:28:55]:
Although my my kid goes to a German school now in in, Brooklyn here. And Yeah. Yeah. So now,

Dr Claire Murigande [00:29:02]:
like Even here in Switzerland, you know, if you talk about international school, most of them are in English. But English is not a national language at all. Yeah. You know? So I I guess you can find more or less everything.

Raphael Harry [00:29:16]:
Yes. Yes. So with that being said, staying with your childhood, at this moment, where do you consider your favorite childhood memory to come from and what is it? Oh. So that'll be your first controversial question by chance.

Dr Claire Murigande [00:29:36]:
Yeah. That's a super interesting question. My first memory and where it was?

Raphael Harry [00:29:43]:
Your favorite childhood memory.

Dr Claire Murigande [00:29:45]:
Oh, my favorite memory.

Raphael Harry [00:29:46]:
Yeah. Yeah. I'm not making it easier for you. Hold on. No. No. At first, your favorite.

Dr Claire Murigande [00:29:49]:
I have to choose my favorite. Yeah.

Raphael Harry [00:29:51]:
You can make it 2, you know?

Dr Claire Murigande [00:29:53]:
It has to it has to be in Kenya, to be honest.

Raphael Harry [00:29:57]:
Okay. And what would it be?

Dr Claire Murigande [00:29:58]:
There's a lot of them.

Raphael Harry [00:30:00]:
Alright. We can narrow it down to 1.

Dr Claire Murigande [00:30:02]:
So so the

Raphael Harry [00:30:03]:
I'll make it easy for you. But

Dr Claire Murigande [00:30:05]:
The the the first one that comes to mind is, spending the holidays on on the coast. So basically, we were living in the capital city, which is Nairobi. And it's Yeah. Well, more or less in the center of the country, I would say. And we so our family had friends in, in Mombasa, which is on the the coast Yeah. Of the Indian Ocean. And some of my best memories were spending holidays at their place, the whole family there. And the reason is because we would well, first of all, you you get to be by the sea, which was for me the first time that I ever saw the sea.

Dr Claire Murigande [00:30:42]:
And, something I kind of vividly remember is drinking coconut water directly from the coconuts.

Raphael Harry [00:30:50]:
Oh, that's nice.

Dr Claire Murigande [00:30:52]:
And that's one of my favorite, memories as well as so that was, like, during the day. And then in the evening, you would eat, you know so in the US, you say corn, right? I was raised up to say maize.

Raphael Harry [00:31:06]:
Yeah. Me too.

Dr Claire Murigande [00:31:08]:
That has been barbecued. Right? That has been barbecued. And you can literally, you know, take with your hands and and take the the the the corn in your hands and eat them when there's been barbecue. I mean,

Raphael Harry [00:31:19]:
there's Roasted corn. Yeah.

Dr Claire Murigande [00:31:22]:
Yeah. Roasted. Yeah.

Raphael Harry [00:31:25]:
So did did they sell them on on the street side?

Dr Claire Murigande [00:31:28]:
Exactly. On the street side with, like you would have, like, cassava chips, you know.

Raphael Harry [00:31:32]:
Oh, okay.

Dr Claire Murigande [00:31:33]:
And all these things. So yeah.

Raphael Harry [00:31:35]:
I think that

Dr Claire Murigande [00:31:35]:
Some some fun memory.

Raphael Harry [00:31:36]:
No. The cassava wait. That's not roasted, the cassava chip?

Dr Claire Murigande [00:31:40]:
No. That would be then fried, like, really, like, you know, potato chips that you would just, like, cut, and then they would fry it, and that's something you would buy, you know, on the street.

Raphael Harry [00:31:48]:
Oh, okay. And, you

Dr Claire Murigande [00:31:48]:
know, in in your newspaper, you know

Raphael Harry [00:31:51]:
Oh, yes. Yes. Yeah. Of course. The the corn, woke up, is beignet, but we call it puff puff. You you you you the same thing. Everything was newspaper wraps. Even the meat, Mhmm.

Raphael Harry [00:32:03]:
Newspaper wraps. Yeah. Everything was wrapped in old newspapers.

Dr Claire Murigande [00:32:07]:
Yeah.

Raphael Harry [00:32:08]:
Yeah. Thinking yeah. Roasted corn. We had this, local pier. It's like my I I don't think it's longer than my, index finger. Yeah. My next finger might be longer than the biggest pier, the local pier that we had. It's poplish when we're boiled.

Raphael Harry [00:32:27]:
But Mhmm. After you boil them, you you you can place them on the the little grill thing because they use, like, old they use cement pans, the pans that they carry on their head for with cements for construction workers. I don't know if they still like, the price to do that because I've seen it in Middle East too. So, that you put the charcoal in there and then have the the little grill stuff on top, and then you have the corn on it. And then you're by the roadside. They have that on a on a stand, and then, you know, you approach them to get your corn and you pick the corn that you want. You know, yeah, I want that one, the big one or the one in the middle or, you know, you don't pick the one on the side, obviously, or for some weird reason. There's some science behind that.

Raphael Harry [00:33:10]:
Get the one in the middle. And then you get the pier. Yeah, the corn and the pier always go together. I've never seen that pier anywhere outside of Nigeria, you know, yet published. I don't know the name, I think, yeah, I don't think it's it's probably local to Nigeria. So local small pair. I have to look it up and see what, yeah, if there's another name for it. But I think, yeah, we I think we just call it local pair.

Raphael Harry [00:33:38]:
That's what it's called. Yeah. But that with, corn yeah. They they went together. So yeah. So Mombasa yeah. This is the second time Mombasa has been, if if someone's, childhood memory, if a right childhood memory. And actually

Dr Claire Murigande [00:33:54]:
Oh, really?

Raphael Harry [00:33:54]:
Yeah. This is one of the people I was thinking of introducing to you, that's that was our childhood memory. So

Dr Claire Murigande [00:34:00]:
Okay.

Raphael Harry [00:34:01]:
So I guess everything is

Dr Claire Murigande [00:34:02]:
aligned. Connection.

Raphael Harry [00:34:04]:
Yeah. So still staying with your childhood, but we'll we might go a little bit older. What did teenage Claire want to be or see herself as becoming if I'd asked, let's say, 12, 13, 14 year old Claire, what will she become career wise? You know? Yeah. What did she see herself becoming career wise?

Dr Claire Murigande [00:34:34]:
I I think teenage Claire, whether she be 13, 14, 17, or 19, didn't have a clear career plan.

Raphael Harry [00:34:42]:
I don't think anyone of us did, but she had some imagination and said, this this is it. This

Dr Claire Murigande [00:34:48]:
Even a clear career goal, to be honest. I I I remember I think I must have been 18 or 19 something. I was speaking with a friend on holiday. I was like, oh, you know, when we turn 30 or something, where do you see yourself? And I was like, I don't even know where I'll be when I'm 20. Why are you asking me when I'm 30? Like, it's so far away. And for some reason, I think I never had the, I don't know how you can call that, the faculty to project myself, like, very, very far in the future. It is for me, it's like I can only influence here and now. Mhmm.

Dr Claire Murigande [00:35:27]:
And once I can do that, then when tomorrow comes, maybe I'm ready for tomorrow. Like I and this is the way I put it in words today, like I mean today, like the past few years, but I guess this is already what I had as a teenager. I never imagined myself being, I don't know, whatever, an artist or, you know, Nobel prize for whatever. There was, I mean, there was nothing really, like, specific objective for me, like, when I get older, you know? Like, when you ask kids, like, what do you do? The thing is I never ask kids what they want to do. It's like, okay. What do you like doing now? And that's it. You know? But many are like, okay. What do you wanna do later? Because, okay.

Dr Claire Murigande [00:36:06]:
You have to study this and that. And for me, to be honest, we're reaching to doing science and all these things was always following something that I find interesting. And especially, like, a field of interest where I'll be continuously learning something. Like for me, doing biology was the only thing I or research or science, whatever you want to call it, was the only way I could see at that time where I would be continuously learning something new. And this is what this was the only thing I wanted to do was to continue to learn.

Raphael Harry [00:36:41]:
Oh, so you you just enjoyed learning Yeah. But you you couldn't picture a way of translating that into something. You didn't know what what it would turn into, but you just

Dr Claire Murigande [00:36:55]:
Exactly. Learning. I never imagined, okay, it's gonna be this, and then you're gonna do this and that. And it's, like, even, like, say today when you start your career and say, okay, what's your career plan? How do you find mentors, sponsors, all these things? I feel like I always followed instinct or intuition and say, oh, that's interesting. I want to do that. Can you try that? Let me see. And after 3 years, okay, maybe this lab when I've done this, how can I now use it somewhere else, you know?

Raphael Harry [00:37:21]:
Mhmm.

Dr Claire Murigande [00:37:21]:
I I have, I guess that's that's particular to me or that's unique to me. And it's not, as far as I know, it's not very common in the sense that, okay, like, what's your goal? How are you gonna do this? I mean, I know friends who were in school with me, like, pretty young, who knew, okay, I'm gonna be a doctor, or I'm gonna build my business. And it was just so clear for them. And for me, I've always admired that. Even, like, people who can be really experts and specialists in a specific field. Because for for me I just feel like the way I am, I just it's like a sponge. Like I I take on everything. Yeah.

Dr Claire Murigande [00:37:59]:
And at some point I will, you know, translate this and that or test this into that. But I just don't see myself doing just one thing and focusing on that and just continuing and continuing. Even though, I mean, I can do it. Like, I did a PhD. I knew how it was just like I had a specific topic. I had to do the research and everything, but then it has an end. So after that, you do something else. You know? So I guess that's how I've always approached, yeah, the the future, so to speak.

Raphael Harry [00:38:28]:
I I don't think it's only you, but I I I can relate to

Dr Claire Murigande [00:38:34]:
Mhmm.

Raphael Harry [00:38:35]:
An extent because, for for me, it's like my mind is always like, there's 10,000 things happening at the same time, and it's like, okay. How to narrow it down to one thing and then one part? Like, okay. That's like, I could do coaching. I could do the sports coaching. I could do, military. I could do supply chain and like this, that, that, then. And then I'm like, ah, then there's the health issues, and it was like, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, and then well, sometimes, like, I listen to too much noise from outside too, the pressure, and then, oh, you should be this. Oh, you're the son.

Raphael Harry [00:39:09]:
You're a son, and you should be providing this. And it's like, oh, oh, oh, oh, and then then he's like, oh, and then you don't wanna look at, oh, this you know, well and then family brings the well, this one has built a house and has 10 children. So what about you? And then you're like, okay. Well okay. So that'd be in 5 years' time. I get a wife, and then I get the the and then okay. And I'm a my professor in this. Okay.

Raphael Harry [00:39:36]:
So I like this stuff. Right? So maybe I can become a professor, if I can push you this academic lane, and then I this and then that. I'll be like, wait. Why am I doing all this? No. It's like I pushed that out the window. And then that's so until the until the day I discovered, I could say no. And it was, not a bad thing to say no. And yeah.

Raphael Harry [00:40:00]:
And then it's like, I started floating in a different realm. Mhmm. Yeah. The I I used to be I think most of my projecting into the future was kind of along that line of, like, okay. So this is I just drew a map, and this is and I was just going like pow pow pow pow pow pow, like, you know, check points. I was a good, immigrant African son until until then. Yeah. That's what it it was.

Raphael Harry [00:40:30]:
Like, I was just okay. This house. Okay. This this is this. I'll hit. I'll I'll achieve all this and then and then one day, it's like, no. Trying to be a therapist or anything like that. I never was attracted to those fields, but I do have people who come talk to me, and I'm like, okay.

Raphael Harry [00:41:00]:
Well, maybe you should you know? I don't not ask ask yourself why you're doing this or that. And Mhmm. It's always fascinating, you know, especially from our communities, those of us who left home and moved to a different continent, different environment. Yeah. And I see people who you know, I used to be crazy when it came up. Like, oh, this person this person had done this design and this is how they achieve all this. And and then the person will run up to me. I'm like, oh, man.

Raphael Harry [00:41:34]:
Yeah. I admire you, man. It's like you you you I'm like, dude, you you I I marry you, and and the person's like, no. No. You're you're the one. I'm I'm like, oh, wait. So what I'm I'm I'm tripping. I'm the one tripping.

Raphael Harry [00:41:48]:
So, yeah, that that that's why I I respect you being open with yours and talking about not being able to do that long term projection, and it's it's not a bad thing, and I'm not saying people who've done that. It's a bad thing. It's not some if you're if you're good at it, you're good at it. And Mhmm. Everybody has their own way of going about life.

Dr Claire Murigande [00:42:14]:
Exactly.

Raphael Harry [00:42:14]:
Yeah. Exactly. But I'm just Yeah. Pointing out that there are people who've, you know, not everybody is able to talk about it openly, and some are only able to talk about it in private and rest respect to them for even still being able to talk about it because there are some who are just drowning in it. And to everybody, they're like, woah. Success. This is great. And then that person is just literally drowning in the so called success.

Raphael Harry [00:42:38]:
So, yeah. It's why I like having conversations like this and just letting people know that, even if you're drowning in it, still seek help. There's help out there. Mhmm. So with that being said, you continue, we're we're gonna move forward to your young adult days. When it came to pursuing university education, you you attended university in Switzerland, or did you go outside of Switzerland?

Dr Claire Murigande [00:43:13]:
No. No. I stayed in Switzerland. I I

Raphael Harry [00:43:14]:
I Were you tempted to go outside?

Dr Claire Murigande [00:43:18]:
Not necessarily. No.

Raphael Harry [00:43:20]:
Why?

Dr Claire Murigande [00:43:20]:
Because I that's a good question. I never thought of going outside.

Raphael Harry [00:43:26]:
But you could you could speak French. You could speak German. You could speak English.

Dr Claire Murigande [00:43:30]:
Yes. True. I could have been anywhere, to be honest.

Raphael Harry [00:43:34]:
Mhmm.

Dr Claire Murigande [00:43:36]:
But the quality of education here is also very good. And the options are pretty interesting. So, again, for me, it honestly didn't matter where I was in terms of pursuing further education or, I mean, university education. Again, as long as I was learning something, it was interesting. So they also I was first at the University of Geneva where I had a good faculty of science. And, interestingly though, even though I want to study abroad, like, for a whole degree, I did do a I don't know if it's still I don't know if they still do it nowadays. Maybe not. You know, a a few a few years back, they would do this Erasmus exchange.

Dr Claire Murigande [00:44:25]:
Like, I either you go to New Zealand University for a whole year

Raphael Harry [00:44:28]:
or Oh, yeah.

Dr Claire Murigande [00:44:28]:
Semester or something. Exactly. So I thought, you know, being based in Switzerland and the fact that many universities collaborate and so on, so I actually went to Spain and spent 3, was it 3 or 4 months? I think it was 4 months. Not not an entire semester. Okay. Doing research in a lab, basically.

Raphael Harry [00:44:49]:
Oh, what was that experience like for you?

Dr Claire Murigande [00:44:53]:
That was really cool. That was really nice. Well, first of all, it was a bit of, I don't wanna say a shock, but I went to Barcelona. And for those who know, so Barcelona is in Catalonia. Mhmm. So which is one of the provinces, I guess, you can call them like that. And the specificity about that province I suppose maybe others like Galicia, they have their own language, but their Catalan is very strong. Right? It's like and then, like, the 1st week I was there, I would see all the signs, you know, the metro signs and everything.

Dr Claire Murigande [00:45:20]:
Everything's written in 2 languages. So there's first Catalan and then there's Spanish. And that was I didn't know anything about Spanish, to be honest. I kind of heard a few things before because growing up in Geneva, there's a lot of Spanish people, but I had no idea about Spanish. And that's why I wanted to do mostly an exchange with practical work and not necessarily studying, like, you know, theory and, you know, learning about biology in Spanish because I had no idea about Spanish. But I thought being in a lab was easier to communicate because they it's just about what you're doing. And for me, that was much easier. So when I got there, I was like, oh, but Spanish is so easy.

Dr Claire Murigande [00:45:58]:
Because in fact, Catalan, at least the way it's written, was quite close to French, in in my opinion. Again, it's my bias, you know. Mhmm.

Raphael Harry [00:46:06]:
And I

Dr Claire Murigande [00:46:06]:
was like, oh, this is gonna be easy to learn. And then I realized, no. No. No. Clear. Catalan is the first language because they're very proud of the language, and then there's then there's the Spanish. Then, obviously, I learned Spanish during that time, so I still understand pretty well and I can talk. But I was really surprised that it was actually two languages, which made it you know, when I moved to a German speaking part of, Switzerland, a few years later, it was quite similar because here they speak Swiss German, and it's not the German you learn in school.

Dr Claire Murigande [00:46:37]:
So it feels like my brain since the beginning, right, I've always been juggling in so many different languages that I I probably have developed this ability to, you know, to find my way through different environments. But, no. I thought, you know, staying in Switzerland and doing studies in Switzerland was quite easy. And why need to go abroad? And probably it's gonna be more expensive because being in Switzerland, again, coming from public school, and you didn't have to pay that much in the end compared to a private university if I would go to, say, France or even, I don't know, Germany or the US or somewhere else. So I basically stayed in Switzerland. And I did my my master's in Geneva and then my PhD in Basel. So it's a different city.

Raphael Harry [00:47:24]:
Yes.

Dr Claire Murigande [00:47:24]:
In the German speaking part which is bordering Germany and France, actually.

Raphael Harry [00:47:31]:
Ah. Yeah. Great. So, usually, I I always think that Switzerland is more expensive than other parts of Europe. So

Dr Claire Murigande [00:47:44]:
I mean, I'm not saying it was cheap. I'm just saying that studying at the university.

Raphael Harry [00:47:50]:
Yeah.

Dr Claire Murigande [00:47:50]:
Yeah. Yeah.

Raphael Harry [00:47:50]:
About the university, I was like, oh, you know, after what Yeah. To that

Dr Claire Murigande [00:47:54]:
But life in general is a bit more expensive here anyway. So

Raphael Harry [00:47:58]:
Okay. So but, I'm only used to well, the longest the place I've lived the most in Europe is Havix Park, closer to Munster in Germany. And so now I base my cost of living around there and then Finland and, obviously, York, London. But, that's a big city, so that's obviously expensive. I mean, I felt it when I I I mean, I I came from New York then. I was like, what? This one this this an apartment in London? Like, man, you know what? I'm a

Dr Claire Murigande [00:48:27]:
Yeah. London is super expensive.

Raphael Harry [00:48:31]:
Yeah. So, you go all the way to your masters. You know? I think that's also proves something that is not just in America. Like, we we have this it's it's kind of, funny saying now that, you know, black women, they get the degrees, and I think it's not just limited to America's worldwide. Black women and degrees, yay. Shout out to y'all. Y'all y'all get that degree thing going. You know? And, y'all inspire us.

Raphael Harry [00:49:03]:
Like, I don't know. Maybe one day, I'll I'll try and get the the masters, and, I don't know. Maybe I'll just go for PhD. I don't know. It's it's I got 2 degrees, I think.

Dr Claire Murigande [00:49:12]:
I actually I know someone who did her quite a few people who did their PhD while they were working. So, I mean, it's not I kind of went the straight line again because, like I said before, you didn't have a specific

Raphael Harry [00:49:24]:
Yeah. I thought I would. I thought I would. And,

Dr Claire Murigande [00:49:27]:
But then I know people who who who worked quite early, and then they they went to do their masters later on, even their PhD after that. We went with the family and kids. So, I mean, nothing is ex to be excluded. Right?

Raphael Harry [00:49:41]:
That that was the original plan, and then I was like, you know what? Yeah. But probably

Dr Claire Murigande [00:49:47]:
if I

Raphael Harry [00:49:48]:
still if I still had government money, I I probably would have just, whoops, went all the way. But, yeah, my next life, maybe.

Dr Claire Murigande [00:49:58]:
It's never too late.

Raphael Harry [00:49:59]:
It's never too late.

Dr Claire Murigande [00:50:00]:
You can always try.

Raphael Harry [00:50:01]:
To y'all listening, it's never too late. You know? Don't don't be like me. Just keep going. Get it all. Get it all. But if you have, you know, free funding from the government, hey. Grab it. I mean, get all your degrees, you know.

Raphael Harry [00:50:14]:
For sure. When did you decide that you were going to, you know, stay in academia as a career path?

Dr Claire Murigande [00:50:25]:
Actually, I didn't stay. I I I left quite early. Oh. Because I mean, so unless you say, like, earning all these degrees as a career path, I mean, I don't really think so. But after the PhD, I I did a little bit of research, but just 1 year, and I realized this is not necessary for me. I didn't want to stay in academia and do the whole research thing and apply for grants every year and do all these things and honest. Academia is very competitive. And I suppose that's not my nature to be super competitive.

Dr Claire Murigande [00:50:53]:
So I was like, no. This is not for me. And I I went into the private sector. So I I basically moved to the life science industry. And that's where I spent most of my life because that was, what, 14 years altogether? Almost, yeah, almost a decade and a half. And I worked in different companies, different roles. And for me, that was much more exciting and interesting because, like, each new role I would take on, I would try to figure out, okay, what did I learn in the previous one to help me move on the new one? And that's where I mean, if you look at my my CV and my career there, maybe you can say, okay, she had a clear path. She went from this, this, this, from a more, like, back office role, so to speak, to a role that's more exposed to working with, you know, healthcare providers and so on, to leading a team, to leading a department.

Dr Claire Murigande [00:51:50]:
So I kind of went that path. I did do it, right? Yeah. But then it was not like an objective in itself for me. It was more like okay How far can I go with what I know? Basically, now that was the just the the the with my experience, you know, that was the the point to try and because I worked also in different companies, you know, it was every 2, 3 years I was changing. So is that, I guess, that, how can you call it, that curiosity fact to say okay I've worked in this disease area, what do, what happens in cardiology for example? Is there an opportunity in the company for something else? So it's always looking for that next thing where I could perhaps challenge myself again.

Raphael Harry [00:52:37]:
Yeah.

Dr Claire Murigande [00:52:39]:
Because I suppose when I am challenged, that's where I get most resources and, you know, be creative. If I'm too comfortable, I suppose that's not really how can I say this? It's not really driving me, so to speak. So I guess that that was the whole but I did do that that corporate career path, if you wanna look at it from that lens. Yeah. From coming in as a not a junior, but, you know, like a more, I would say, reactive role to something more proactive to leading a team in the department and so on and so on. And that was always interesting. Like, all the companies that were different, and just like any other industry, you know, you would have a company that would acquire a startup, but then a larger company would buy you so dynamic would change. Mhmm.

Dr Claire Murigande [00:53:26]:
And for me, it was a always a question of, okay. Is this what I is it fitting with what I want right now or not? And if not, then I look for something else.

Raphael Harry [00:53:36]:
So I I have a friend who he's worked with, he's he's done a startup or 2. He's also he's he's currently in academia, you know, bouncing both startups and, he has his own startup with his wife, And they're both in academia, and, they they also have a not for profit thing that they they are also attached to. And the the thing with the, like, competitiveness of academia is also, yeah. I mean, he's he's talked about that. You know, we we get to conversations about on on that, and it's like but at the same time, you know, I I try to gauge what attracts what encourages them going forward and, you know, I don't want it to just be like a downer when I'm talking to them. So for you, do you prefer the startup side of things, or do you prefer the more established, companies out there? You know? What what which which ones hold your interest the most?

Dr Claire Murigande [00:54:45]:
There's pros and cons for everything.

Raphael Harry [00:54:47]:
Yes. I agree.

Dr Claire Murigande [00:54:49]:
To be honest, I think if I knew before how things were, I'm and I'm also the type of person who first tests before going into something. So I guess that's also the scientific part where you do experiments, right, in the lab and have your theory and so on. I I don't know what is it all depends, like, what is your objective. Like, what do you want out of this role or this part of your life where you want to be an entrepreneur or you want to be an employee? I guess you have to ask yourself the right questions first. Because whether it's corporate or established company, whether it's more start up or entrepreneurial, you need to be ready for it.

Raphael Harry [00:55:38]:
Yeah.

Dr Claire Murigande [00:55:38]:
And maybe in your early twenties you're probably much better. I mean, I have to say right now the younger generation I'm quite surprised and and very much impressed at the the way lots of people are entrepreneurs, so to speak. And because my upbringing and I again, I I, you know, I went in a regular school university. So it always it also has been a certain, fixed environment. Right?

Raphael Harry [00:56:07]:
Yes.

Dr Claire Murigande [00:56:08]:
And that's how I that's the environment in which I develop my thinking, who I am, and so on. But now that I'm also, like, I ventured out somehow and I'm doing my own thing through the podcast, using the podcast to earn, like, other, you know, engagement, speaking, moderating, everything. I see that actually everybody can do anything, but then I was not exposed to that before to to make a more not the ideal decision or at least the decision that was made for me, maybe in my mid twenties, for example. Right? It's just that the decisions I've always made were from what I knew. And back then, I only knew about academia. I mean, you know, continuing your path Yeah. And and eventually finding a job at some point. Not that I didn't know that anything else existed, but I was not exposed to that.

Dr Claire Murigande [00:56:57]:
You know, like, we were speaking before about being exposed to different cultures and languages and everything. Yeah. Like, I could easily go and spend 4 months in Barcelona and so on. But it was still in this context of it's academic. I'm doing my research, and I'm just going to do some, you know that's the way I also I could sell it. I'm not just going to Barcelona to be in Barcelona. I'm still I can get my credits and come back, and then it's not like a semester lost. Right?

Raphael Harry [00:57:19]:
That's right.

Dr Claire Murigande [00:57:20]:
So, I guess it was easier for me to be in the corporate side of things. And I also see that being in the corporate side of things, you don't necessarily have that, I don't want to say necessarily freedom, but this the openness to try and test things because you're in a certain environment. You have you need to give out a certain you know, if you have a budget if your department has a budget, there's just so much you can do. Because if you're finished out a budget, then next year you don't have the budget. But if you're working on your own, it's like, okay. I need to get my clients first. And maybe you can be more creative in that sense. Let's say, like, in the corporate environment, you you you your margin of creativity is not as large as if you're in a start up, for example.

Dr Claire Murigande [00:58:06]:
And I I don't know if there's one that I prefer over another. I guess it's important to ask yourself, whoever whoever is listening or wondering, like, what do I want for myself right now? And if this is not right for me, where can I find something else? And where can I find people to help me or to learn more about this and try if it's good for me or not? At least that's the way I approach things, you know. Yeah. But maybe I can also I'm lucky to do that because I and as you said, I want all the way through university to have a certain degree. And once I'm on the, on the labor market, obviously, I have a certain value in the sense that, okay, she earned that. So we know she can, you know so maybe it's easier for me to say that today because I went through all that. So if someone is maybe now in their early mid twenties and they had they just, you know, don't even have a university degree, but then it's in the end it's how you also tell the story about your own journey. So it's your narrative right? So what do you bring? And I think today many things have changed as far as I can tell.

Dr Claire Murigande [00:59:10]:
And maybe even corporates or startups people are more open to so called nonlinear career paths. Right? And perhaps that someone who is in their mid early twenties today have different options than I had back then, right? So, yeah, I would say the environment plays a role but it's also about what what is good for you and only you can answer that question for yourself, not anybody else, you know.

Raphael Harry [00:59:38]:
Adapting to the environment.

Dr Claire Murigande [00:59:40]:
Yeah.

Raphael Harry [00:59:41]:
That's a big one. So you mentioned moderating and how did you get into moderating in in, you know, how did iPhones happened?

Dr Claire Murigande [00:59:51]:
Through the podcast.

Raphael Harry [00:59:53]:
And so it's the podcast

Dr Claire Murigande [00:59:54]:
of 1st. I pitched myself as a moderator for events because podcasting is basically moderating, right, more or less. You have people on. And, and I have to say, I had been also doing some of these. Someone asked me the other day, yeah, but now you're doing something totally different. You're no longer in science. I mean, obviously, no. I'm no longer in life science per se.

Dr Claire Murigande [01:00:14]:
But if you look at every step of the way, whether it was through academia, even, like, life sciences and what I do now, if I narrow it down to one thing in common, it's about communication. So whether I was doing research, you would go to congress and you communicate your results. Right? You either present a poster, you present at an oral session, you write whatever no. No. Peer reviewed article, everything. You're always talking about what you're doing. When I was in, the data science industry, it was more or less the same thing whether it was, you know, as a medical information manager. It was more reactive.

Dr Claire Murigande [01:00:52]:
People would come and ask us questions on the drugs that the company developed, you know, the the the the data behind the clinical trials and all these things. And then I worked with HDPs to so health care professionals to, set up, like, continuing medical education events and all these things. Or when I had advisory boards or even a symposium at a congress, it was all about communicating the data Yeah. The science behind. And today, you know, podcasting, and that's what you're doing. Right? It's about sharing other people's stories. It's about how do you communicate that? How do you bring that about? So if there's, like, one red thread, one common thing about all these things, it's always been about communicating and sharing those stories. Whether it's in the science, whether it's in the private sector, whether it's now in what I call social impact because I'm amplifying these stories, you know, whatever the, the field it is.

Dr Claire Murigande [01:01:45]:
Healthcare, education, and so on. So, yeah, I think it's it's it's been always the same thing, actually. It's just a different setting now. And now I get to choose what story I talk about. So who who do I talk about? And and for me, being a moderator is kind of like the, the combination of all of that. Because it's about something that's interesting, but then I'm bringing different perspectives together for a specific time. If it's an event, for example, you know, I one of the great things I've done was for this, local film festival here in Zurich and it's called Films for Future. They focus a lot about on environment and other social issues.

Dr Claire Murigande [01:02:29]:
It has been so fascinating because well, first of all, I get to see so many interesting documentaries. But then, like, after the screenings, you have either an expert in the field or the filmmaker who is there and you get to talk with them and connect them with the audience. And that's, you know, even though podcasting is, like, not live in the sense that now your audience is gonna listen to this after we record it, But being a moderator is really doing it live. I mean, you can also do live podcast recording. Right? Yes. But I guess being a host is the same as being a moderator. You you're bringing, like, one information from one side and you're connecting it to some other people who are gonna listen to it. And for me, that's how I I connect both, both things.

Raphael Harry [01:03:13]:
So there's a science to, to being a moderator or being a host of a podcast. There's a science behind it.

Dr Claire Murigande [01:03:24]:
That's my that's my explanation, my interpretation. Whether it's scientifically prove quote, unquote proven, I don't know.

Raphael Harry [01:03:32]:
I'm going with that.

Dr Claire Murigande [01:03:34]:
But,

Raphael Harry [01:03:35]:
No. There's there's, there's a clip. So from the sports world, there's a a show on Fox Sports. I think it's called undisputed. Is it undisputed? Yeah. Let's skip Bailey's. He's having a bad time right now. And if you want an example of how not to be a good host, that's go watch go watch that show.

Raphael Harry [01:03:58]:
That that's you don't even need to watch the whole show. Just watch clips of it on any social, and you have you have a you're gonna laugh. And he he messed up his he had he had a great cohost in the past, and he was, I'm assuming most people don't know him. People watch who listen to this podcast, I'm assuming you don't know who he is. And he it was it was it was racial, what he did to his cohost. He's a live show, and he literally said, shut up, boy, to a big black man live on TV. And dude had to control himself because you could tell he was about to grab this man, and that was the end of the great relationship they had. Well, the you know? And since then, his show has been going down, and now they've just been bringing any anybody they can find to be on the show, and his face when he's lost total control of and everybody's just talking, and he's there looking like, oh, man.

Raphael Harry [01:04:57]:
What did I do? Mhmm. What did I do? And I'm like, yeah. If you want an example of how not to be a terrible host. He tried talking one time, and it's like nobody's even paying attention to you on your own show, and they're just talking over him. And I'm like, yeah. There's a science to being a host.

Dr Claire Murigande [01:05:16]:
Yeah. I I guess they're

Raphael Harry [01:05:17]:
because he's there literally on his own show, and, like, 4 people are talking over him, and he's just they're like, oh. Oh. This is bad. This is bad. TV. Yeah. So, yeah, so, one last thing on moderating. What has been your most, can you share one fun experience that, you know, yeah, just a fun moment, the most memorable moment that you've had from moderating?

Dr Claire Murigande [01:05:47]:
A memorable moment.

Raphael Harry [01:05:49]:
Yeah.

Dr Claire Murigande [01:05:55]:
I think one okay. This doesn't even relates to what I'm doing today, but one of my last, positions, one of the companies I've worked with, we had this, special day where we invited 2 I think it was 2 founder 2 co founders of a patient association. And, you know, I just volunteered with one of my colleagues to say, okay. We're gonna host moderate this session. And because these 2 guys were coming from the, Spanish French speaking part of the country, I was like, okay, yeah, yeah, I can do it. And it's gonna be French and, you know, English, blah blah blah. And I realized that it was the first time that I was doing simultaneous translation. Because we would actually ask them the questions in English.

Dr Claire Murigande [01:06:40]:
And because I think only one of them spoke English, if I'm not mistaken, and the other one or was it both? Anyway, at least one of them was not speaking, English. And then the thing is, I I would kind of, like, translate after that the, the the answer. And it's amazing how you can focus your brain on something. Obviously, for a given moment, it was not 2 hours. Right? It was probably 45 minutes or something.

Raphael Harry [01:07:06]:
That's still

Dr Claire Murigande [01:07:06]:
That was quite impressive because Yeah. I had no idea whether it it was gonna work or not. I just thought, oh, let's try this, you know. You never know. And we didn't have a few people who spoke French, but the thing is we wanted everyone to understand. So we had more or less, like, the questions we would ask so that they would prepare. But, you know, when it comes to a live event, you never know. And Yeah.

Dr Claire Murigande [01:07:29]:
And that was amazing how I mean, I was I was impressed of how much you can focus your brain on specific things, you know, when when you say, okay, this is what I'm gonna say. And then to manage to ask the next question, obviously, I was co moderating, so I had someone else doing it. But that was, that was interesting. That was a memorable, you know, memory.

Raphael Harry [01:07:50]:
Wow.

Dr Claire Murigande [01:07:51]:
Yeah. You

Raphael Harry [01:07:51]:
know what? You just gave me a new go. I'll one day you know, when I'm good enough to interview someone in English and German, then, yeah, that'll be new goal. Translate, get English and German at the same time. Yeah. And, you know, and translate and then deliver in both English and German. Yeah.

Dr Claire Murigande [01:08:15]:
And if you're actually if you're a sports fan, at least this is what happens very much here in Europe is, you know, whenever you're watching either, you know, football completion I'm speaking of football because the Euro was just not long ago.

Raphael Harry [01:08:27]:
Oh, yes. I I was definitely

Dr Claire Murigande [01:08:28]:
Or even, like, track and field or any other sports, most of the time now, athletes are being interviewed right after. Like, even tennis. Right? Even tennis, they're interviewed. Like, for instance, I'm thinking of Roland Garros, which is in France, and most of the players who are not French, then they will be interviewed right after the game. And you see, you know, you see how the host is switching from one language to another sometimes.

Raphael Harry [01:08:51]:
Mhmm.

Dr Claire Murigande [01:08:52]:
That's exactly what happened, you know. So and and that was interesting because I had seen that a lot, and I was like, okay. Now I'm doing this. This is cool.

Raphael Harry [01:08:58]:
That is. It is cool. Yeah. Yeah. Not impressive. Now if I if I had a clapping sound bite, I would have, you know, so I

Dr Claire Murigande [01:09:05]:
I just clap with you.

Raphael Harry [01:09:06]:
You know? Get your flowers. Get your flowers. That's that's that's impressive. So Thank you. Yeah. One one thing I noticed on your website was you you had this, phrase, leading with compassion. So before I move on to the other segment that I like moving on to, I just had to get, what does that mean? Leading with compassion. What does it mean to you, and why is it important?

Dr Claire Murigande [01:09:35]:
For me, it's important because you for me, when you're a leader, first of all, you you have to do your best to include everyone. Whatever that, you know, means in the sense that everybody's voice has to be heard on the team and so on. But it's also your your work as a leader to try and figure out, okay, who who is good at this? Who needs help here and there? And it's all about the people in the end. That's why I the word compassion for me comes down to people who are not basically you, people holding on your team. How do you lead them in whatever their objectives are, you know, as in their career, for example, or, you know, whatever it is. I I remember I had one of my team members in one of the, teams that I led, there was like a big change within the company and then they felt a bit like, not frustrated, but some roles were changing names but then their role didn't change names. I was like, yes, but, you know, look at what you're doing. You're the only one doing exactly that.

Dr Claire Murigande [01:10:44]:
Nobody else in the company is doing what you're doing. Right? You're working on this super product. You're doing all these things. You know, we have only this type of trial here and you're the one who is doing the liaison with the other reg regional teams and so on, nobody else has the same role as you. So it's about also bringing back the focus or at least bringing them how can I say this? In French you say, I don't know how you say this in English, I'm just missing the words right now. It's like changing perspective, okay?

Raphael Harry [01:11:18]:
Yeah.

Dr Claire Murigande [01:11:19]:
It's like you see all these like you were saying before, right? You were saying that you admire this this this friend of yours and how they've been through their whole career and they're like, no no no but I admire you look what you've done and everything. You always see the outside but you don't see the inside.

Raphael Harry [01:11:34]:
And I

Dr Claire Murigande [01:11:35]:
think for me compassion is just reminding people, okay, look at the inside as well. There's just first of all, there's just one like you and look at what you're doing. Nobody else is doing the same thing. Yeah. And sometimes we forget that people also look at us in a different way than we look at ourselves. That's true. For me, that's that's also leading with compassion is reminding people on your team, like, yeah, don't have to compare. I mean, it's good to compare in the sense that, okay, what can you learn from them or how can they support you in reaching your objective as well.

Dr Claire Murigande [01:12:02]:
And that's the other thing. For me, collaboration is more important than competition. Maybe because I like I said before, I don't have this competitive spirit even when I used to play, like, sports. I'd rather play team sports than having to run, you know, be, like, track and field or whatever where there's this one winner and then everybody else loses.

Raphael Harry [01:12:22]:
Yeah. I I only won 100 meter race and that was it. After that, I was like, yeah. You're welcome. Now I ain't running against nobody after that. That was that was the end.

Dr Claire Murigande [01:12:32]:
You see? So so, like, you know, having that collaborative spirit as well and making sure that people are actually comfortable because when you feel good at least in my opinion is when you bring out the best in yourself and then that's when you also find solutions you didn't think about. So for me that's the part that I put under this compassionate leadership.

Raphael Harry [01:12:55]:
Awesome.

Dr Claire Murigande [01:12:56]:
Thank you for that. That's how I see it. Yeah.

Raphael Harry [01:12:59]:
Thank you for that. I like that. It's something that I I lean heavily towards too but, just wanted to hear it in your own words. So now we're gonna jump into some of the most controversial things that I've been keeping on the side. You know? We've we've talked some very deep stuff, beautiful stuff. However, let me channel some Stephen a Smith.

Dr Claire Murigande [01:13:24]:
However, now I am on the grill.

Raphael Harry [01:13:26]:
Yes. Stephen a Smith does that a lot. So he's always like, you know, I love this sister. She's a great sister. You know? You know, she's one of the best sisters out there. However, you're like, oh, lord. Here it comes. Here it comes.

Raphael Harry [01:13:42]:
Here it comes. You know? Oh, okay. Well, if yeah. That's one another question I forgot to ask. But, you know, yeah, we're still also part of the how. However okay. So why is audio storytelling important to you? You know what? Yeah. Why is that, that means you lean onto podcasting is Mhmm.

Raphael Harry [01:14:08]:
Purely audio. Why why do you belong to that camp? I have an idea why, but, you know, gotta hear it from you.

Dr Claire Murigande [01:14:17]:
Because if I listen to someone or if someone is listening to the conversation I'm I'm having, for instance, say you're on my show and I'm, you know, we're having this conversation. I think just listening to it, you you are more attentive. Like your attention is really focused. That being said, you know having because having video and audio for me, you are reaching out to 2 of your senses

Raphael Harry [01:14:51]:
Mhmm.

Dr Claire Murigande [01:14:52]:
And you can't have both of them accurate at the same time. Again, this may be not scientifically proven, but that's my personal experience. Right? Maybe I would look at, like, okay. I'm looking at Rafael. Oh my god. He has a great screen behind. How does it how is it that he has a recording studio, and he has his label of the podcast in the back? Although I'm still listening to what you're saying. Right? Yeah.

Dr Claire Murigande [01:15:12]:
So depending on how your mind works, it might be at least because maybe I'm someone who's like I was saying before, I like a sponge. I just absorb everything. I just need this one focus and and then I can doesn't mean that I'm not focused if I'm not if I'm not watching TV or documentary, you know. But if the image is supporting what you're saying, it's fine. But for me, if it's the image, it's just the conversation between 2 people, yeah, I mean, I don't need the image. The the audio is enough. That's why I want to focus only on audio and coming back to radio. Probably I mean, obviously, maybe you know that as well.

Dr Claire Murigande [01:15:48]:
But, like, growing up in Africa, and, I mean, radio is something super, super strong and super important. And I think even today, even in Europe, like, when you're driving, you're listening to music. You're listening, and there's always radio there. Right? But for me, I feel like radio is much more powerful than having I mean, audio alone, than having both audio and video. Although lots of people say, you know, if you want to reach out to a new audience, You never know. Have your, you know, your podcast on YouTube. Have a few things. And some people even just tune into YouTube just to listen, and then they don't use the video.

Raphael Harry [01:16:25]:
Yeah. Well, first of all,

Dr Claire Murigande [01:16:26]:
for me, defeats the purpose of having a video. So why not just listen to it in a different app? But if it's the case, it's the case, that's how it is. And maybe at some point, I would have some video. But to be honest, it's not a priority for me. Conversation with someone. Yeah. I don't know. It's and when you remember things, at least for me, back in my childhood, there's this.

Dr Claire Murigande [01:16:50]:
And, you know, when we were, like, much younger, we would be told, like, stories. It's kind of like bedtime bedtime stories, if you will. But these are always, like, you know, stories with, like, moral or something. They want some some sort of underlying message or whatever. Yeah. But it was always like the oral tradition. Right? It's not that it was shown with the drawings or something or at some point there was a video, like, maybe recently. It's still for me the oral tradition is so strong and so important that today translating it into audio, like the new medium, is is just like a natural continuation of it.

Dr Claire Murigande [01:17:30]:
So that's why I think audio storytelling is super important. And by the way, you can't have video without audio. So audio is important.

Raphael Harry [01:17:37]:
That's really important.

Dr Claire Murigande [01:17:41]:
You see?

Raphael Harry [01:17:43]:
You're you're right. Radio is king. I grew up with radio. Without radio, I wouldn't have been doing this. That's the that was the first influence on me. I was that weird kid who listened to AM over FM a lot. That's how I found

Dr Claire Murigande [01:17:56]:
So maybe it's a generational thing that is probably our generation and maybe youngsters today just don't care. You know?

Raphael Harry [01:18:01]:
I traveled to other worlds through radio, and that's why I loved AM back in the days, because I could catch, I could find radio stations in other parts of the world and, other places. So, yeah, that was a huge influence on me, and then, you know, it was, there was an interview with Roy Wood Junior, the the comedian, and that's how I I realized that, you know, there's something I used to say in the past where I was like, yeah. I didn't know black voices on the radio. It was mostly white voices and that, that's how I used to, like, tell myself that, you know, because I had a chance to be on radio when I was before I left Nigeria, I had a chance to be on radio twice, and I was like, oh, my voice doesn't sound like a professional, so I ran away. I literally ran away. And, but it was something I programmed into myself, but I heard black voices, but you don't know that's the disadvantage. Like, I didn't they had no picture of who was speaking, so I couldn't tell. But Roy Wood Junior's dad was one of the people I'd heard.

Raphael Harry [01:19:05]:
Because when I heard the interview and he's talking about his dad wasn't always around, but his dad was traveling and was reporting on you mentioned the radio station. I was like, yeah. I did hear your dad. Yeah. He was one of the people I was hearing. And I was like, oh, wow.

Dr Claire Murigande [01:19:19]:
So I

Raphael Harry [01:19:19]:
was hearing some black voices, but I didn't know what black voice sounded like.

Dr Claire Murigande [01:19:23]:
True. So That's the disadvantage too. Yeah. Okay.

Raphael Harry [01:19:26]:
Yeah. Let's see what it is.

Dr Claire Murigande [01:19:27]:
It's a disadvantage of audio.

Raphael Harry [01:19:29]:
It wasn't it it's it no. But at that I'm sure I was I was pretty young. And if everything that I've been told around me then was, like, solely white people die in those spaces, then at that age, I start thinking only white people work there. You don't think there's other people who work there. You don't think there's diversity. I didn't know the language of diversity. So, yeah, it's not really you know, I I the disadvantage was in not knowing the ignorance that only one peep type of people worked in those places. So Mhmm.

Raphael Harry [01:20:01]:
Mhmm. By the time I was given the opportunity to go be on radio and little somebody just wanna take me to his friend's radio station. I was like, yeah. State radio. Come do, like, 10, 15 minutes. I was like, and I ran away. I was like, no. Oh, I don't sound like those people.

Raphael Harry [01:20:15]:
So no. And

Dr Claire Murigande [01:20:17]:
But you so you did do radio before even broadcasting, you mean?

Raphael Harry [01:20:20]:
No. I I was afraid. I was like, why why would they who won't listen to my voice? But every time they had arguments in the house, people who said this guy's voice, he can't the opinions he has, he he needs to be on radio or TV. So the guy is like, yeah. He and he did somebody who didn't like me. He didn't like me. I knew he didn't like me in the family, but he was like, you know, I'm going to see my friend. I'm going to his radios.

Raphael Harry [01:20:42]:
I'm going to the radio station. I'll take you with me. On Saturday, we're gone. So you're gonna be on air for, like, 10, 15 minutes. And I was like, yeah. I don't sound like those people. So I ran away. I just disappeared from the house on the day of then second time he was gonna do it again, and I was like, yeah.

Raphael Harry [01:21:03]:
Okay. We're going at what? 9 o'clock? Okay. 8 o'clock, I disappeared.

Dr Claire Murigande [01:21:07]:
Oh, so you disappeared the second time as well?

Raphael Harry [01:21:10]:
Yeah. Second time. I was just and this is the type of opportunities people have been looking for, but Yes. You don't I was, like, 21, 22. You know? Okay. I don't but it was panic. I was just panicking then. And, even, was it this week or last week? I had radio is still king right now.

Raphael Harry [01:21:32]:
I saw one report, and they were talking about, was it I forgot what they were where I headed, but they were talking about on cars. You know, you you enter the car and, you know, they were they were talking about podcasting, some issues podcasting still faces, how you get into a car and you automatically turn the car on. The radio is playing. So you can't just turn on the car and the podcast starts playing. You have to go find the podcast that you listen to and get it on and, you know, get it into the car or the system kind of thing, but your radio is there. It's most people already have their radio station, automatically tuned.

Dr Claire Murigande [01:22:12]:
Preprogrammed. Preprogrammed. Just automatically starts.

Raphael Harry [01:22:15]:
Yeah. It's something that podcasting still has to struggle with when it comes to, why radio is still king. And this is in America, not even Africa that they're talking about. This is a problem in America and, like, podcasting is dealing with. So, just that alone. And I was like, yeah. You know? That's why most times you meet people and, like, I have a podcast and you have to walk them through it. You have to be patient and all that.

Raphael Harry [01:22:41]:
And what's this? Yes. We I tell people I just like, I have a YouTube, and you can listen to it on YouTube. And they're like, I I just say you can listen. I'm like, no. The if you wanna watch, join Patreon. The video is on Patreon. And, yeah, if you're really about watching, then go go join my Patreon. The video is there.

Raphael Harry [01:22:58]:
That's why I I only have the video on Patreon. I don't have a video for you to watch on YouTube. But if you Yeah. Listen, yeah, you can play it play it on YouTube and you have it playing in the background. That's it. And if you're really committed, then Patreon. Yeah. So, moving on now, the main controversy

Dr Claire Murigande [01:23:16]:
here we go. Wait. Wait. Wait. Wait.

Raphael Harry [01:23:17]:
Oh, yeah.

Dr Claire Murigande [01:23:18]:
Can we also have, like, so you you asked me why audio storytelling is is powerful?

Raphael Harry [01:23:24]:
Oh, yes. Yes. Sorry.

Dr Claire Murigande [01:23:26]:
But then you you said you have your own idea, but can you share your idea and tell me why you think it's powerful?

Raphael Harry [01:23:32]:
Oh, it it tied into the I think you you answered. It was in your in your answer there with the the your answer on the radio. I when I came into podcasting, I I I think from right from the beginning, I'm I'm I always believed in audio over video. And although I'm not against video, some people work it works better for them with video, and I'm not against that. And, if you support me on Patreon, hey. That that works for that. You know? But, you know, as someone who grew up with the audio world, traveling my mind to well, no. I know the power of audio storytelling and, the the stuff you talked about with kids, the storytelling.

Raphael Harry [01:24:22]:
We we also had tales by moonlight. That's what it ours was called. There was some dramatic reenactment of part of it, but for the most part, half of at least, I think 60% to 70% of the story stories were told, and then there would just be, like, 1 or 2 scenes reenacted. Mhmm. Because some of it were animals, and this was back when they didn't have budget for CGI and all that kind of stuff. So yeah. You know? You you like, you we we at home, we'll be like, man, that's a terrible animal. Like, come on.

Raphael Harry [01:24:55]:
But one of the as my one of one story that I always remember comes from that program, and it's the story of the guy who wanted to be he wanted to collect all the wisdom in the world, and he went around the world collecting the whole wisdom. I don't know if you know a calabash.

Dr Claire Murigande [01:25:13]:
Yes. Yes.

Raphael Harry [01:25:14]:
Okay. So he gets all the wisdom in the world, stores it in a calabash, and says he will be the only person to have this wisdom in the world. Again, all the wisdom in the world, and he will store it on a palm tree.

Dr Claire Murigande [01:25:29]:
Mhmm.

Raphael Harry [01:25:29]:
Now he's trying to climb this palm tree, and he's struggling with climbing the palm tree. He has the calabash on his stomach, and he's trying to climb the palm tree. And a kid is walking by and sees this man with the calabash on his stomach. The kid is like, what are you doing? That's not that's not he climbed a tree with a calabash. He's supposed to fling it on your back. You know how to climb a tree? And the kid walks away. And the man is like, oh my goodness. You mean I have all the wisdom in the world, and I don't know how to climb a tree with a calabash? And in anger, he smashes the calabash on the on the ground, and all the wisdom escapes.

Raphael Harry [01:26:06]:
And, you know, that's why we are all wise. Everybody has this wisdom. Every wisdom returns back to all over the world. And I was like, maybe it's 9 or 10 or 11 if I was too old. Mhmm. And I was like, what the hell? Man, this that man was stupid. That's why that I remember watching that. I was like, come on.

Raphael Harry [01:26:26]:
Stupid. That's why and our school, we're all laughing about it. But I never forgot that story. Mhmm. I forgot a whole bunch of stories from it. If I if I go on YouTube I think on YouTube, you can still find episodes of Tales by Moonlight, but I never forgot that story. And every time I bring it up on the podcast, people are like, wow. Yeah.

Raphael Harry [01:26:44]:
That that that makes sense. That makes sense. You you you you can never stop learning. You can never claim I I got all the information. Well, I got all the yeah. No. You always see somebody who yeah. When you say you got everything, you always run into somebody who's like, yeah.

Raphael Harry [01:26:58]:
Mhmm. And you go make it look stupid. And at age 11, that's 3. And I was like, oh, come on. That's not so that was the power of audio storytelling. And, you know, and because I don't remember the the the the the visuals from that story. I don't recall the visuals, but the audio still stuck with me. Yeah.

Raphael Harry [01:27:22]:
So that alone is just the example that I need, and that's all the motivation that I need when it comes. That that that's just my answer with audio storytelling right there.

Dr Claire Murigande [01:27:34]:
I hear you.

Raphael Harry [01:27:35]:
Yeah. So so now I'm hoping this would give me one of the controversies that I need.

Dr Claire Murigande [01:27:44]:
Another one.

Raphael Harry [01:27:45]:
Oh, okay. We'll see. Yeah. No. No. This is the main one. This is the main one. The main one that should be the main start of the however's.

Raphael Harry [01:27:52]:
So you are, you have experienced different cultures. You've lived in, you know, you've lived in different parts of Switzerland and Europe, you know, Africa included. When it comes to your favorite go to cuisine, what is it? You gotta betray somebody, obviously. So that's where the controversy comes.

Dr Claire Murigande [01:28:23]:
My favorite go to what?

Raphael Harry [01:28:24]:
Your go to cuisine. What's your favorite go to cuisine? Oh. Yeah. The betrayal.

Dr Claire Murigande [01:28:29]:
Not a good question.

Raphael Harry [01:28:31]:
Now the betrayal. So

Dr Claire Murigande [01:28:33]:
This is not fair.

Raphael Harry [01:28:34]:
Yep. One culture. Get get ready. Start sharpening your your pencils and pens. Okay. You know?

Dr Claire Murigande [01:28:39]:
Maybe I have an answer, but it's not precise. I say East African.

Raphael Harry [01:28:43]:
Is East African?

Dr Claire Murigande [01:28:45]:
Yeah. What?

Raphael Harry [01:28:46]:
Oh, wait. You go are you gonna claim a whole region?

Dr Claire Murigande [01:28:48]:
It go it goes from it goes from, you know, Njera, you know? Yeah.

Raphael Harry [01:28:52]:
In Jera. Ethiopia? Yeah.

Dr Claire Murigande [01:28:54]:
Yes. To to how is it? To chapatis, you know, chapatis.

Raphael Harry [01:29:01]:
Oh, no. No. No. No. No. No. No. I see what you're trying to do.

Raphael Harry [01:29:03]:
You're trying to be diplomatic. No. No. No. We want a diplomatic spot. We want some

Dr Claire Murigande [01:29:08]:
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Raphael Harry [01:29:09]:
Want some countries to start writing and say, she's not one of us. We deny her right now.

Dr Claire Murigande [01:29:15]:
I I don't care what they say.

Raphael Harry [01:29:17]:
I said, no. We're going down. Start write get your pencils and paper. Start writing. And, you know, I will give you her mailing address, and you can write straight to her. But you if you if you pay me, you know, just €5, 5,

Dr Claire Murigande [01:29:32]:
you know. Samosa, which is kind of like a mix between Indian. Obviously, it's Indian influence from East African coast of Kenya and Tanzania. So chapati, samosa.

Raphael Harry [01:29:42]:
Any any drink to go with that?

Dr Claire Murigande [01:29:45]:
Drink? Oh, interesting. I don't have a favorite drink. No. I don't

Raphael Harry [01:29:49]:
No. You can't you can't claim all of them. Drink? You gotta you gotta be complete the betrayal.

Dr Claire Murigande [01:29:55]:
I don't know. And then the thing I like about, like, from Rwanda, from basically my my heritage is cassava. You know, cassava leaves, we cook them like spinach somehow.

Raphael Harry [01:30:07]:
Oh, well well well well well.

Dr Claire Murigande [01:30:09]:
And the cassava

Raphael Harry [01:30:11]:
Liberians have that that unlock now. So like yeah. I I think we'll give that to Liberia. So Rwandans, you can still complain too. She's choosing Liberia over you. So right in right in. Rwanda, Kenya. Look, Kenya, you give her

Dr Claire Murigande [01:30:27]:
If I have okay. If you want me to choose, like, one only from those, I would still say I would still say that it's Njera, Ethiopian I mean, or in Trent because I I suppose this is what has also strongly marked my childhood in Kenya. We used to eat that a lot. And I I really I love the injera bread.

Raphael Harry [01:30:47]:
For some reason, it's very rare. That bread is you can't go wrong with that bread.

Dr Claire Murigande [01:30:50]:
Yeah. Yeah.

Raphael Harry [01:30:51]:
You can't go wrong with that bread. You know? I I give you that.

Dr Claire Murigande [01:30:54]:
That'll be my my all all favorite over everything else if I have to choose 1. But it's I mean, obviously, it's part of my it's my childhood food. Right? So, you know

Raphael Harry [01:31:04]:
Mhmm. Koreans, you can still write in and complain. Even Tanzanians just because, you know, they're in a lot of common ways. So write in and complain. I mean, write to her, not me, but, you know, I'm just the messenger. So I'm doing my job. So complain.

Dr Claire Murigande [01:31:19]:
If you have a good recipe for chapati, you know how to do chapati, send me the recipe because this

Raphael Harry [01:31:23]:
is the last thing

Dr Claire Murigande [01:31:24]:
I haven't still haven't

Raphael Harry [01:31:25]:
I like the twisting there. To do. I like the twisting. I would twist that in.

Dr Claire Murigande [01:31:30]:
I'm reaching out to your audience now. You know, I'm tapping into your your your work. I need to learn how

Raphael Harry [01:31:39]:
to cook chapati. Oh, man. I love that. I love that. Yeah. Let's see. See, that's another question I love asking because, you know, it's we surprised.

Dr Claire Murigande [01:31:48]:
That coming. Right?

Raphael Harry [01:31:48]:
I don't yeah. I didn't see that coming. That's a good twist. That's a good twist. Now the next question on this one, we'll we'll see how you you answer this. So everybody who appears on this podcast is considered a dancer, and you can't claim, oh, I don't dance. It's too late. Because if you claim that, we'll stop recording and kick you out out of the show.

Raphael Harry [01:32:13]:
So

Dr Claire Murigande [01:32:15]:
So wait a minute. They're considered a dancer even before you ask them. So you have them on and you assume they're a dancer.

Raphael Harry [01:32:20]:
Let's not assume. It's too once you come on the podcast, you know, only dancers appear on this podcast. So you can't claim, oh, I don't dance. No. My man don't dance. Too late. You're you're already a dancer. So now we need you to give us at least 3 artists that can keep you dancing for, you know, an hour.

Raphael Harry [01:32:43]:
Now there's a caveat. It gotta be

Dr Claire Murigande [01:32:46]:
what's the caveat? Yeah. Yeah. I was preparing the list in my mind already.

Raphael Harry [01:32:50]:
Oh, don't worry. Don't worry. I I I know where you were going, but I got you. That's why I'm here. I'm here for you. So 3 or 4 artists that can keep you dancing for at least an hour. Mhmm. You can't give us, English.

Raphael Harry [01:33:03]:
You know? You can't give us an you gotta give us artists from I will make it from each language, you know, each of the languages that you speak. You know, we'll limit it to the languages that you speak. So English, everybody knows English. You know? There there are too many popular artists. Don't know. Just keep English. You know? And that includes, like, Afrobeats. You know? That that we don't know.

Raphael Harry [01:33:18]:
Afrobeats on this podcast. So Afrobeats are in English. So that I'm I'm helping you here. You know? I'm helping you. So you know, you can really? Yes. Yes. I'm helping you. Making it easy for you.

Raphael Harry [01:33:29]:
You know? So now you can give us 3 or 4 artists from, you know, the the line.

Dr Claire Murigande [01:33:35]:
Sing in English.

Raphael Harry [01:33:36]:
Mhmm. You know? We like discovering artists here and, you know, so there you go. You know, there are too many English singing artists. So, you know, who needs that? We don't. You know? So let's go.

Dr Claire Murigande [01:33:49]:
It bears the question. Do I listen to artists who don't who don't sing in English? I'm just wondering right now.

Raphael Harry [01:33:55]:
Oh, well, that that is that is my problem. Yes. You know? It's all yours now. You said you already had the list ready, so that that's good.

Dr Claire Murigande [01:34:03]:
No. I actually had the one. They they all sing in English, the ones I was thinking about.

Raphael Harry [01:34:06]:
Too bad.

Dr Claire Murigande [01:34:07]:
Yeah. Too bad, Mhmm.

Raphael Harry [01:34:10]:
I I kinda had to make it make it easier for you. So, you know, so I had to tell you.

Dr Claire Murigande [01:34:16]:
How can you make it easier?

Raphael Harry [01:34:17]:
How do you make it easier for you, sir? Took out the English.

Dr Claire Murigande [01:34:23]:
Can we do this in part 2 of the podcast?

Raphael Harry [01:34:26]:
Part 2 will be a whole different. Yeah. That the I'll send it to you to another music question.

Dr Claire Murigande [01:34:30]:
No. And then I will I will have a link to my Spotify playlist.

Raphael Harry [01:34:33]:
Oh, you can pull up your Spotify and and and and, you know, inspire quickly. You know? If the artist is too popular, you know, it's a very no. I might I might take off the artist's name again. So, you know, let's do

Dr Claire Murigande [01:34:44]:
it once. There's there's one at least okay. Now if I'm thinking there's one that a friend of mine sent me, like but I think it's been already 2 or 3 years ago, and I think he's Kenyan. Either it's it's a collective or it's one of the singers he's he's called or his group is called Sawtisol.

Raphael Harry [01:35:03]:
Sawutisol. Oh, I like that. I like that.

Dr Claire Murigande [01:35:05]:
Yeah. I'm sure you know him. Right? Or them or

Raphael Harry [01:35:08]:
Yeah. I think they're broke up.

Dr Claire Murigande [01:35:09]:
Right now. If it's the collective and then they have, like, each have their own, you know

Raphael Harry [01:35:13]:
I think they're broke up.

Dr Claire Murigande [01:35:14]:
Individual careers.

Raphael Harry [01:35:16]:
I thought they broke

Dr Claire Murigande [01:35:17]:
That would be one I could think of.

Raphael Harry [01:35:19]:
Okay. I'll accept them. Nobody has mentioned on this podcast. So okay. We'll we'll accept that.

Dr Claire Murigande [01:35:25]:
Just a minute. And

Raphael Harry [01:35:30]:
You can do it. I believe you.

Dr Claire Murigande [01:35:31]:
This is awful. I think I listen

Raphael Harry [01:35:33]:
to all in English. I believe

Dr Claire Murigande [01:35:35]:
you. You're making me realize that my my musical diversity isn't that diverse.

Raphael Harry [01:35:39]:
See? You see, that's why I'm here. You know? I'm I'm glad I could

Dr Claire Murigande [01:35:42]:
So now I need to change fire you myself again.

Raphael Harry [01:35:46]:
To to update your music list. You know? They they got some fire, though. You know? You have some fire artists in Switzerland who sing in French or Italian or

Dr Claire Murigande [01:35:54]:
So there okay. There's this one I mean, she she sings more ballads than something that would keep you dancing all the time, but she she's a French French artist.

Raphael Harry [01:36:04]:
You don't dance ballads?

Dr Claire Murigande [01:36:05]:
Her name is, Iseult. So y s e u l t. And I think she first appeared several years ago on a TV show where she was competing as a singer. And then afterwards, she made her own career, like, as an independent musician.

Raphael Harry [01:36:23]:
Oh.

Dr Claire Murigande [01:36:23]:
She's not so much of but some of the I have to say her own songs are more like slower ballads, but then some of the collaborations she's had and she sings only in French are much more like dancing songs, I would say. Okay. She's just pretty good.

Raphael Harry [01:36:38]:
We'll we'll let that slide. We'll let that slide. Okay.

Dr Claire Murigande [01:36:43]:
And then a third one. Honestly, I don't you see, I even opened up my my my Spotify accounts to check, like, my liked songs. I don't I don't see only English songs.

Raphael Harry [01:37:01]:
Alright. Give give us one of

Dr Claire Murigande [01:37:02]:
This is a shame.

Raphael Harry [01:37:03]:
I have only English.

Dr Claire Murigande [01:37:05]:
Oh my goodness. You got

Raphael Harry [01:37:07]:
me here. Alright. Let let let's have 1 or 2 English. Let's let's see the first two English names that you give us. English thinking artists that you give us. And it can't be it can't be Beyonce, Ariana, or Bonaboy.

Dr Claire Murigande [01:37:24]:
No. Beyonce and Ariana, no Bonaboy.

Raphael Harry [01:37:26]:
Yeah. So I'm I'm making it easier for you, but

Dr Claire Murigande [01:37:29]:
my bestie. Missy Elliott?

Raphael Harry [01:37:32]:
Oh, okay. I I love Missy Elliott. That's also amongst popular names, but alright. Well, my my my bias will kick in there. I I I love mister Elliott a lot. Yeah. And my first my second niece was a big fan of, mister Elliott. So alright.

Dr Claire Murigande [01:37:49]:
And then for me, it's like, if you go to hip hop, really, there's, like, well, maybe it's old school now, but groups like Tribe Called Quest and, Dola Sol for me are my favorite, really. Oh.

Raphael Harry [01:38:04]:
Oh. Okay.

Dr Claire Murigande [01:38:06]:
Like, Dollar Soul I I by the way, Dollar Soul was one of my best concert I've ever been to when I was studying in Basel. Oh. And I think they were, like, the at the end of their tour at some point, it was in the summer, And one of the, group members had his birthday at that point. And it was, like, one of the most unforgettable concerts I've ever been to.

Raphael Harry [01:38:32]:
Alright. Well, you can't New York can't hit you. Those are you you called some solid names. That's alright.

Dr Claire Murigande [01:38:40]:
So Yeah. Those are the classics. Right?

Raphael Harry [01:38:42]:
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So

Dr Claire Murigande [01:38:45]:
But I have to say you just made me realize something. I listened to music, song, mainly in English.

Raphael Harry [01:38:54]:
Yeah. I'm surprised too.

Dr Claire Murigande [01:38:56]:
And this is really surprising. I need to reconsider all of this.

Raphael Harry [01:39:07]:
Don't worry. Next time, I I know I know how I'll hit you next time on the music question. Oh, it's gonna be fun.

Dr Claire Murigande [01:39:15]:
I don't know if I'm coming back for far too now.

Raphael Harry [01:39:22]:
Oh, man. This is this is great. So I can't thank you enough for giving me your time. And at the final question, this is, your freestyle moment. So the final question is always where you get to you know? The final question is just a final question. It's your freestyle moment, and you you you answer

Dr Claire Murigande [01:39:49]:
I can say anything I want.

Raphael Harry [01:39:50]:
Yeah. As far as it's not, something that'll make me take cover and run away with my laptop. I'm like, oops. Gotta go. Be like, the views of Claire are not the views of white label America. Yeah. But it's your freestyle moment. There you go.

Dr Claire Murigande [01:40:06]:
Well, first of all, thank you so much for for connecting with me because I remember I think it was early 23. Right? We were both interviewed by Talib Jazir Yes. On the Afrisen Audio, Black History Month. And he immediately connected with me. And And that was amazing. It was really cool because I didn't think that I would connect with people doing this interview series. Right?

Raphael Harry [01:40:30]:
Yeah.

Dr Claire Murigande [01:40:30]:
And opening up to this whole podcasting community, which for me, living in Europe and all you guys being there, but still still it has an international flare, so to speak. That was really amazing. And, and for inviting me as well for for considering that my journey is is worth being shared on your show because I know you have also a great audience. So I'm happy to be part of of this, of this series of your your podcast. In general, I think, honestly, for me since I started podcasting and to whoever is listening out there and maybe you're hesitating, I don't know what to do, whatever you do, whether it's podcasting or not podcasting at all for that matter, you know, put yourself out there and just try and do things. Because like we were saying before, you know, there's there's just so much that we as humans I would say or like at least in our social in our societies nowadays we think too much about ourselves but this is most of the time not what others see about us you know what other people see about us And if we just try and do something that you think is interesting, something that you think makes you feel good and you can help other people, just just do it. You never know what's gonna lead you. I mean, exactly what is it? Today is July.

Dr Claire Murigande [01:41:51]:
Exactly. July 2024. In July 2020 is when I had the idea to start my podcast. Just like an idea. Wow. Mhmm. And I attended this master class workshop thing, and I realized, oh, podcasting is actually an industry. I had no idea it was an industry.

Dr Claire Murigande [01:42:07]:
I was listening to podcasts all my life, but I didn't know it was an industry. And then a month later, I'm like, okay. What is it gonna call? How am I gonna do it? And I gave myself an objective to say, I tried this 6 months. We see how it works out, but I want something out before the end of the year. And here I am talking to you about my childhood, about what kind of music I listen to that is not English, you know, and many other things. So I think you never know with who you connect. And inevitably when you really go out and do what feels right to you, you attract the people who also help you on that path and on that journey. You know? I mean, I've been doing this for almost 4 years.

Dr Claire Murigande [01:42:56]:
Self employed now for almost 2 years. But it it's 2 years. 4 years is nothing in a lifetime. I mean, I've lived so many other so many decades. I don't know what's gonna happen next, but I'm just trying. And I think everybody's just trying to be happy on this earth and, you know, feel good.

Raphael Harry [01:43:12]:
Yeah.

Dr Claire Murigande [01:43:13]:
So as long as you have that in mind and make sure you attract the right people, I think everything should be good, normally. And, and and today, we have so many ways and so many opportunities and tools to connect with each other that, you know, without tech, even though I was speaking about audio being powerful storytelling tool, without having all these tech things, I would have never done a podcast because, like, 90% up to 90% of the people I spoke to was just like you, like this. You know, we're connecting through either Zoom, either whatever the platform and they're somewhere else in a different city of this country where I live in Switzerland or even a different continent. And, you know, wherever we are, we are very similar. And we we find a way to connect anyway.

Raphael Harry [01:44:02]:
That's right.

Dr Claire Murigande [01:44:02]:
Yeah. I'm really looking forward to listening more of your content. I'm following you anyway. And thank you for tuning in to my show as well and for inviting me. So it's been a pleasure, and I think I'll get ready for part 2 next time. Alright.

Raphael Harry [01:44:18]:
Don't worry. You will see that question coming. I was

Dr Claire Murigande [01:44:20]:
telling you the questions before. It was not gonna be it was gonna be freestyle like now, you know. When I said, oh, it's a Sunday afternoon for me. This is great.

Raphael Harry [01:44:30]:
In the week, I will

Dr Claire Murigande [01:44:31]:
sit down with Rafael. We'll have a cool chat.

Raphael Harry [01:44:35]:
It was a cool chat.

Dr Claire Murigande [01:44:36]:
Gonna be I I didn't know there was gonna be so many howevers and howevers and howevers again.

Raphael Harry [01:44:43]:
Don't worry. I appreciate you, my sister. You're you're great. So please let the people know where they can find you and, how to get in touch.

Dr Claire Murigande [01:44:54]:
Sure. So I'm I'm mostly active on LinkedIn. So if you type my name, Claire Murigande, m u r I g n d e. So you'll find me there. That's where I'm posting every now and then on different things what I'm doing. And to follow the podcast, the name of the podcast is narratives of purpose. And I have to say, I for some reason, I didn't check again. I started 4 years ago.

Dr Claire Murigande [01:45:19]:
I have no idea when I did my my website in the beginning. I could have changed the name, but I never changed it to its state. And if you want to listen to all the episodes with the transcript and find out more about the podcast and additional content, so you just go to narratives dash of dash purpose dot podcast page dot I o. So it's really long, but once you get there, you have, you know, anything you want to know about the podcast, about me, and about my guest as well. So, yeah, just tune into that. And if you want to connect, I'm on LinkedIn.

Raphael Harry [01:45:56]:
Alright. And all that will be in the show notes. Remember on the website, you can always find the guest information there. Alright. Thank you all for listening. See you at the next episode. And once again, banner, that's how we say thank you. Mbana and to doctor Claire Murigande.

Raphael Harry [01:46:15]:
And I'm your host, Rafael Harry. Thank you for the privilege of your company.

Dr Claire Murigande [01:46:22]:
Cool. Thank you.

Raphael Harry [01:46:23]:
Thank you, Claire. Thanks for listening to White Label American. If you enjoy the show, please give a 5-star review on your favorite podcast app. You can follow the show on all social media platforms. Visit the White Label American website for links for donations, episodes, feedback, guests, merch and newsletter. Don't forget to download the free White Label American app on the Google Play Store and Apple coming soon. Thank you for the privilege of your company.