Ep 161: Rethinking Interpretations: Examining the Bible, LGBTQ+ Rights, and African Spirituality ft Rev Jide Macaulay

Raphael Harry [00:00:00]:

Welcome to White Label American Podcast. This is a podcast that brings you bold, in-depth interviews with interesting people who are mostly immigrants taking down artificial walls one story at a time. This is a podcast that empowers immigrants to share their stories and listen to those of others. Thank you for joining us. Welcome to another episode of White Label American. Thank you all for joining us today. I'm your host, Rafael Harry, and I appreciate each and every one of you who's been listening and supporting us in every way possible. Five stars sharing episodes, bringing new listeners.

Raphael Harry [00:00:51]:

Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Afros and Audio Podcast festival tickets are still going on. If you want to join in, you can buy tickets, and use the promo code RH 200:23 Afau. Remember, it's October 21 to the 22nd is the first Black Podcasting Festival. So please, they need all the support they can get. Some sponsors pulled out, so, hey, when it comes to black things, we have to struggle to get money and all that.

Raphael Harry [00:01:23]:

So you can also donate. So go on the Afros and Audio podcast festival website. Please support them in any way possible. We need all the support we can get. All right, so with that being said, I am honored to have today's guest. How did I even come in contact with you? I think it was through the clubhouse. I may have run into you in one of the rooms, and I was like, there's just something different. Something different.

Raphael Harry [00:01:51]:

And when I say something different, it's in a positive way. Where I was a few years ago, I probably wouldn't have brought today's guest on. And I'm glad for the journey. I'm glad for this podcast because it's about bringing a diversity of thought, to showing growth, and the growth also includes mine. And you all know I'm not religious any longer. I was born into a very conservative religious family, but it doesn't mean I frown on people's rights to religion or people's right to practice. But it's also important to bring people who still believe in their faith and who believe in using their faith to show you the path to where you need to get to, to show you that the journey continues. But it's not a journey that is about oppression or oppressing others.

Raphael Harry [00:02:51]:

And that's why I had to bring today's guest on. And I have the honor of introducing Reverend Jide Ribet. Macaulay.

Reverend Jide Macaulay  [00:03:00]:

Thank you so much.

Raphael Harry [00:03:02]:

Thank you for having me. And welcome to New York again.

Reverend Jide Macaulay  [00:03:05]:

Thank you very much.

Raphael Harry [00:03:07]:

How are you doing today?

Reverend Jide Macaulay  [00:03:08]:

I'm actually doing very fine. Yeah. My name is Jide McCauley. Rebirth is a name that I gave myself, so it's not a name my parents gave me.

Raphael Harry [00:03:17]:

Okay.

Reverend Jide Macaulay  [00:03:17]:

The reason for rebirth is that having been through life as a young adult, and at some point, I came out as gay, and everything that I knew about my religious upbringing literally fell apart. So I grew up in a very Christian, conservative Christian family. My father is also a pastor. My late mother is very religious. But I think that when I came out, for me, it was really a very tough experience. And through all of that, I started to look for answers to many questions that I had about my sexuality. Can God love me just the way that I am? Are there Christian spaces where I can be myself? So the name Rebirth became one of my names as well because I was Rebirth when I went on a journey of reconciling my faith and my sexuality. And I totally believe that God loved me just the way that I am.

Reverend Jide Macaulay  [00:04:26]:

I am not an apology to God. There's nothing to change. So all this madness about conversion therapy, all this healing, deliverance, and cutting out and binding the demonic spirit of homosexuality is absolute nonsense. And I'm just hoping that your listeners will stay tuned and have an understanding that God loved them just the way they are.

Raphael Harry [00:04:51]:

They've had different voices. Interestingly, everybody from the LGBTQ community that's been on this podcast has been spiritual and has been active in faith, which has been something that's not something that I've gone out of my way to find, but I've been pleased to discover that because it would have been a lot easier to just do away with faith and say, hey, I'm being oppressed by most faith that I practice, so why should I be in that faith? But before we continue with that, let's go to the very beginning. I was looking for something that somebody sent me, so yeah, found it. But your names, you have beautiful names. Actually, your first name is the name of one of my childhood friends who unfortunately passed away about two years ago. But I was going to ask for the meaning of your names, but before I get to the meaning of your names, and if there's a story behind them, your last name is also the name of one of the men considered to be the founding fathers of Nigeria. So do you have any relation to that person?

Reverend Jide Macaulay  [00:06:10]:

Yeah, he is my great-great grandfather.

Raphael Harry [00:06:13]:

Oh, wow.

Reverend Jide Macaulay  [00:06:14]:

Yeah. So I am a descendant of you Know, so there are just so many stories behind it. Course, you know, people might know. How about Macaulay? Of course, Macaulay is the colonizer's name, and many former colonies have many people with different names like Smith, Jones, Martins, Macaulay Simpsons.

Raphael Harry [00:06:34]:

I'm Harry.

Reverend Jide Macaulay  [00:06:35]:

Yeah. And I think that the thing with names is that names are very important to many Africans. I was called Baba Jude. My grandfather on my patano side passed away in April of 1965, and that was the year that I was born. I was born in November, so I was the fourth male child who was born after the passing of my grandfather. Now as a Yoruba man or someone who's from the Yoruba clan. So to say Babajide means father wakes up. And when a child is born after a grandparent passes away, it is believed that the child is being born to appease, to bring joy and happiness to the family because they're still mourning the loss of a grandparent.

Reverend Jide Macaulay  [00:07:23]:

And the same as well for girls as well. If a girl child is born after a grandmother passed away, they would name her names like Iyabo Yitunde and so on and so forth. So it's really a blessing because it means that this new child has softened the pain of that family.

Raphael Harry [00:07:41]:

Yeah, I remember that I lived in Ibadan for a few years. I finished secondary school in Ibadan, so I got introduced to that part of the European culture. Well, can you introduce us to your place of birth? And you've already introduced us to a part of the culture.

Reverend Jide Macaulay  [00:08:02]:

Absolutely. So I was born in London and of Nigerian parents of Nigerian heritage. My parents were students in England in the 1960s, and they gave back to three of us in England. I moved to Nigeria probably either late 1968 or early 1969 after my younger brother was born. So I was raised in Nigeria. Niger Proper. Okay. I was raised in Nigeria, so we came to understand the culture.

Reverend Jide Macaulay  [00:08:37]:

And I'm always very grateful that I was raised with a good knowledge of the Yoruba culture, the Nigerian culture, all the things that everyone should know, really, like respecting your elders and of Know. The one thing that I also love about Nigeria is the food, and that goes with you everywhere. It's not just the Jollof rice, but also the Amala gbegiri and pounded yam and so on and so forth. But I think that the other thing, again, is, know, having been raised in Nigeria, it gave me a better understanding and grounding that is often expected, because sometimes people think that children raised abroad, especially in America or in Europe, are often wayward because of certain laws. I think that for me, children can be raised anywhere in the world. They just need to be raised with love. That's what they need. Because if you cannot find love at home, you will go seeking it across town, and that's where you get into serious trouble.

Raphael Harry [00:09:42]:

That's right.

Reverend Jide Macaulay  [00:09:42]:

Now, of course, my early education was in Nigeria, so I went to nursery school, primary school, and secondary school in Nigeria. And I returned to England in my late teenage years, when I also continued my education and, now, signed up for a law degree in England, where I studied law and I became a lawyer.

Raphael Harry [00:10:10]:

All right, let me cut you there before you go too far before you spill too much tea. Staying with your childhood, what do you consider your favorite childhood memory to be at this moment?

Reverend Jide Macaulay  [00:10:22]:

Oh, my goodness me, I've never thought about this question.

Raphael Harry [00:10:25]:

Yeah, that's why I'd like for you.

Reverend Jide Macaulay  [00:10:29]:

My childhood memory has to be the rural living in Nigeria and the fact that we go fetch water at the river, that is one of my childhood memories.

Raphael Harry [00:10:43]:

Which village?

Reverend Jide Macaulay  [00:10:45]:

Well, I mean, in mean, it was now, Ujudu is now a huge city or town in Nigeria, but when it was very rural, we used to go with our own bucket of water, just go fetch water for the household. We might make a number of trips in a day, but we often combine it with also taking laundry to the riverside.

Raphael Harry [00:11:11]:

Okay.

Reverend Jide Macaulay  [00:11:12]:

And of course, combined with that as well. Another childhood memory is also my baptism. I was probably about age 13. I was baptized in a river, and the water was not blue, nor was it it was brown. But it gave me the opportunity to say that, look, if Jesus was baptized in the River Jordan, I too was baptized in the river. But I do know that means, of course, being Anglican today, we sprinkle the water of baptism from the font in the church. But there are still some communities that still have full immersion. They can use a swimming pool, they can use a special pool bath for the immersion, for baptism.

Reverend Jide Macaulay  [00:12:02]:

But of course, I'm proper Niger baptizing in the river.

Raphael Harry [00:12:08]:

Yeah. What river? Do you remember the name of the river?

Reverend Jide Macaulay  [00:12:13]:

I actually don't, but it's certainly one of those rivers on the Ojudu side, it would have been maybe at the edge of between Julius Berger and Oworon Shoki Sherry side, there is a river that runs a lot of these rivers could have even dried up development.

Raphael Harry [00:12:35]:

That's true. Yeah. But you're right. When I was in Ibadan around 96 no, around 99 was when I noticed the white government, one of the white government churches in my neighborhood, used to take their members to there was a small stream, it was part of Bodija area, but there was a particular name for that area. It starts with an A. It will come to me later on. And I recall seeing one of their prophets taking the members of the church to the small stream and baptizing them there or washing them sometimes. And I was like, oh, this how they do theirs.

Raphael Harry [00:13:24]:

I was born Catholic, so I don't remember my baptism because I was a baby when that happened. That memory just popped into my head when she mentioned river. And then I recall seeing some I think I may have attended baptist.

Reverend Jide Macaulay  [00:13:42]:

Yeah, I remember.

Raphael Harry [00:13:43]:

In Benin City. Yeah, that just popped in my head, too. I had to live with a family friend for some years, for a few years. And yeah, the Baptists, they went to Ogu River. Ogu river or something like that. But Baptists, usually went to a river, too, to baptize the memories. I thought I'd forgotten.

Reverend Jide Macaulay  [00:14:10]:

Just also to say that I was raised in the White Garment Church. The celestial Church of Christ.

Raphael Harry [00:14:15]:

Oh, yes.

Reverend Jide Macaulay  [00:14:15]:

My dad was a celestial leader. I had a good experience growing up in that environment. But of course, later on, when it comes to the issue of my sexuality, there were so many challenges as well.

Raphael Harry [00:14:31]:

But you guys could dance, though.

Reverend Jide Macaulay  [00:14:33]:

Oh, absolutely. I think that, honestly, it's Africans are dancers, natural dancers when it comes to churches.

Raphael Harry [00:14:43]:

There's differences between other churches and white government churches when it comes to dancing.

Reverend Jide Macaulay  [00:14:49]:

But the one thing that people have often said, is that people try to demonize dancing in church.

Raphael Harry [00:14:57]:

Yes.

Reverend Jide Macaulay  [00:14:57]:

And we've forgotten that King David danced and he danced to the point that even his own wife had something to say about his provocative dancing.

Raphael Harry [00:15:13]:

I remember that story.

Reverend Jide Macaulay  [00:15:14]:

And I think that we should not demonize dancing because the black body, the African body, is built in such a way that it accentuates the dance.

Raphael Harry [00:15:25]:

I mean, look at our traditional religions. It's part of our thing. There's a page I saw on Instagram the other day, nanya Delta Heritage. Delta know, because I know as a kid, there was no for boys, there was no, this is how we dance. But it was like when I attended traditional marriages, then I'll see my uncles moving their hips and I'm like, this how we dance. When do we learn this? And then it's like you're supposed to learn somehow. But you see your masquerades dancing, it doesn't matter which tribe, or which part of the country you're in, you just see masquerades. All the masquerades, they move their heaps.

Raphael Harry [00:16:05]:

So there's something about the dancing. Doesn't matter if you're male or female, and I'm using just those two genders. But it comes with us. The celebration, the way we celebrate. We don't just stand still. It's a thing that we move with.

Reverend Jide Macaulay  [00:16:19]:

The rhythm, the emphasis. African dance, the emphasis is always on the waist. Yes. If you can move your waves. That's why we've had songs like The Hips Don't Lie. We've had all these songs that even Beyonce has made about butterlicious and things like that. I mean, those emphasis are based on the fact that we dance with our heaps, and that goes with men and women. And also our cultural attire also accentuates the movement.

Reverend Jide Macaulay  [00:16:50]:

So imagine the man with the agbada. Again, we're talking about binaries. But when you move your agbada, depending on which way you're going, you will see how it moves with you. And then if you do a spin, even more amazing. The dance culture is very yeah, it is.

Raphael Harry [00:17:14]:

So, moving from your childhood memory, you've touched on some of your childhood growing up in Ojudu in Lagos, and you are a child growing through that, going through that phase in Lagos, was there any period when you began to notice that you weren't, for lack of a better term, like other kids? There was something different about you?

Reverend Jide Macaulay  [00:17:48]:

It's actually a good term. Yes. I was not like other kids. I believe that I was different. I didn't think that I was special, but I was different. I think my awareness of those differences was probably around age five, six, or seven years old. And it's just the comfort to be with people of my own gender. And it is nothing cynical, but it's something that did not manifest in my environment.

Reverend Jide Macaulay  [00:18:24]:

It was not something that I've seen examples of. So I didn't see an uncle with another man, or an auntie with another woman, or in romantic gestures, because I was raised very much in a very conservative, heteronormative society. So fast forward to maybe about age twelve to 14. It became a little bit more apparent that I was different, and I was physically, mentally, and emotionally attracted to my own gender. And those differences were there. But again, there were no examples, not even in television, not in any kind of print material, not in animation, not in photographs. But again, how do you cope with that? Of course, being raised in a Christian family also meant that I was very privy to reading the bible much more as a young person. And of course, the examples of who I am seems to have centered around what I believe to be what people call an abomination.

Reverend Jide Macaulay  [00:19:34]:

The Bible condemns it. I've read in the Bible myself that homosexuality to some extent is condemned. But I think that we have to look at these issues more closely to who are the narratives. Who is doing the translation? Who is providing the understanding? Is the environment safe for same-gender-loving individuals to express themselves? What kind of environment are we raised in? The truth remains that because Nigeria or most African countries are very heteronormative, we only see those examples, which are simply normalized. So if a man holds the hand of a woman in Africa, it's not seen as problematic. But when you hold the man of another man in such a way that it makes other people, quote, unquote, uncomfortable, then that becomes problematic. But if we have a normal day life where people of the same gender hold hands, and it's not an issue people of the opposites hold hands underneath you, then we have a society that will provide safe spaces for everyone to grow and see examples of themselves. Unfortunately, the other thing, again, is that a lot of people want same-gender loving individuals to deny themselves the opportunity of finding ourselves in scriptures, in religious texts. So relationships like David and Jonathan Ruth and people want to explain them in different ways, so that it doesn't afford a same gender loving individual to recognize themselves in scriptures.

Reverend Jide Macaulay  [00:21:15]:

So, growing up in Nigeria, I've always been aware somewhere between the age of five and seven, and then between the ages of twelve and 14, simply because at 14, my hormones were certainly kicking in. As a young teenager, I was very much aware of my own self and my environment. I certainly know who I am at that point. But being able to articulate it in Nigeria is a different point. But I always say this, at age 14, I had a boyfriend in Nigeria, but I'm not sure if he knew he was my boyfriend.

How did that work?

Reverend Jide Macaulay  [00:21:54]:

That was supposed to be a joke. Honestly, I hope that anyone listening will get my joke. But, I mean, basically, yes. I was so close to a friend of mine. We're about the same age, and we spent a lot of time together.

Raphael Harry [00:22:13]:

In.

Reverend Jide Macaulay  [00:22:13]:

Yoruba, we would say, Ore Kuriku a friend that you cannot do without. And of course, there was nothing sexual about our relationship. It was just the emotional connection, was there? If he's absent from school, I'll go look for him. Well, I'm always by his side.

Raphael Harry [00:22:31]:

Yes, I get those relationships. I had that with both boys.

Reverend Jide Macaulay  [00:22:35]:

Girls as a gay child. For me, it's like the close affinity to that person was really great. On the other side as well, I had many girls who were my friends, but my dad, for example, felt threatened by the fact that there were so many girls. Part of my friendship, and, I mean, he actually had put his foot down one time. He told all the girls never to come round because you see the way that he was thinking, right? He was thinking that there must be something sexual going on. Going on. And I think a lot of African parents make a huge mistake, especially when you don't know the sexual orientation of your queer child or of your child generally, you assume so. I think my father assumed that, oh, my God, there are so many girls around him.

Reverend Jide Macaulay  [00:23:26]:

Six of them are going to come home pregnant. And it was happily not the case. We're probably busy sharing tips about makeup and how to woo the boys.

Raphael Harry [00:23:37]:

Oh, man, I get it now. For that age, the friendship was yeah, there was someone who the closeness was definitely.

Reverend Jide Macaulay  [00:23:57]:

I think young people are naturally inquisitive as well as people. We have to allow young people to be inquisitive and ask questions.

Raphael Harry [00:24:08]:

That's one problem that I had every time I looked back to that period of my life between ten to 1718. It's why one of my late uncles is at least two of three. The person who actually I won't consider the person I consider the most father figure in my life. My late aunt and my late uncle stood out for being the people who never pushed back and said, go away. When you came up with questions, even the hard questions, they always had some explanation, even if it wasn't right. But they were always like, okay, well, have you thought of it this way? Because they allowed you to be a kid, and your opinions may have been upside down, but they allowed me be a kid. And those are the memories that carry me to this day. And I'm like, oh, wow.

Raphael Harry [00:25:17]:

This is what they were doing then. But the rest always like you're stupid, get out here. Do you this? Or they'll laugh at me in my face and then years later they will come back like oh, you had this question, you used to always have this interest, why didn't you follow up on that? And I'm like, you don't remember your reaction to me when I wanted to write and I showed you what I'd written and this is stupid, get out here.

Reverend Jide Macaulay  [00:25:43]:

You know the scenario you gave before we started talking on the show about the young person, a very feminine person who came to see someone. And I think that again, the society, especially in Nigeria, has demonized difference. It's not just the infeminate men, it's also the masculine girls. But because we live in a very patriarchal society, it's very easy for toxic masculinity to take shape. And of course, the reaction that you experience around this infeminate person is because we live in a patriarchal society that detects how women behave. Any man who behaves in the way of a woman is being subjugated society that does not believe that men should take on the role of women because of the power that men have in that society. So men rule. When your aunt said he should walk like a man, we have to ask ourselves a question how do men walk exactly? If you don't walk on two legs, in which other way do you walk? But there's something about effeminate people that we can't control which direction our waist goes, we just move our waist again, we're talking about dancing earlier on.

Raphael Harry [00:27:17]:

That's why I brought up dancing.

Reverend Jide Macaulay  [00:27:18]:

So when people are dancing absolutely effeminate, especially when they're throwing their backside all.

Raphael Harry [00:27:23]:

Over the place, that's why I brought up that example because it all adds up to the curiosity and the confusion at the same time because you've yelled at me. Not me exactly, but you've yelled at someone else and I'm witnessing it walk like a man. And you've painted one picture in my head that is how men are supposed to be. And then we go to our because we are not living in I'm an Ejo and we're not living in an Ejo majority area. And then we go to an Ejo majority area to celebrate our person getting married. And then there's dancing and then all the men are shaking hips and I'm the only one they're like I don't dance, I'm a man. Well, I'm confused now, but why are men moving their hips?

Reverend Jide Macaulay  [00:28:10]:

But if you look at society today, the mental health of men has gone up because we've been told to man up. We've been told we're not man enough. We've been told that men don't cry and it has actually caused there's a time bomb of mental health cry. That's true because allows men to be free, allow men to be themselves, allow men to be vulnerable, allows them to fall and pick themselves up. But when we say men, don't cry. Man up. You're not man enough. We're oppressing men.

Raphael Harry [00:28:43]:

That's oppressive for men, pressure. Right from childhood, you start telling boys, use the wrong type of language. You're creating dictators, mini, tyrants, telling, oh, if we make you a prefect in class, this is how you're supposed to act. And you do it mostly to the boys. You don't do it to the girls. And the girls even try to mimic that behavior so that they can be up there with the boys. And you still like, oh, you're a girl. You're supposed to be a lady.

Raphael Harry [00:29:11]:

Behave like, accept, and submit yourself to the boy's authority, which is another problematic trait that we try to instill in women. And all these things are things that play in my head. Sometimes when I'm looking back, I'm like, oh, man. There were times when I even countered some of it because I didn't know why it was just happening. But I'm like, I don't know. But maybe because I was raised by there were a lot of women in my house, and I knew some who were in toxic marriages because I knew a couple of aunts. I knew an aunt especially, who that monster she was married to that man used to abuse her, physically abuse. But I never knew that happened to my mom, too, until I stumbled on my mom's old diary after she had moved to America.

Raphael Harry [00:29:50]:

And that's when I realized my mom.

Reverend Jide Macaulay  [00:29:52]:

Had faced domestic abuse.

Raphael Harry [00:29:54]:

Domestic abuse. And as a 16-year-old, you're like, man, if I see that man, I'll kill him. I'll beat him. All that's going through my head. But I've been talking when you're around boys like, these girls need to be put. Girls need to behave themselves and all that. How am I going to be talking like that?

Reverend Jide Macaulay  [00:30:12]:

My boys, I think there are times when we look at our society and see how much damage that has been done to society. Unfortunately for the girls, a lot of girls also believe that the men, the boys are superior. And it's sometimes because of the way society you know what? Honestly, the debate or the jury is still out. But I think that is important, that women and girls know that they're equal. They can also achieve as much. I personally just do not believe in this whole thing around patriarchy and toxic masculinity that women cannot do without men, they can do a lot without men, without the pressure. But unfortunately, we as Africans, are raised in a society that believes that women are second-class citizens. And unfortunately, these whole things also come from the religious text as well.

Reverend Jide Macaulay  [00:31:08]:

It comes from how religious texts are interpreted, where it says, women, submit yourself to your husband. Women do not speak in the congregation of the elders, and so on and so forth. These are badly interpreted scriptures that put a lot of oppression and subjugation of women and girls. The scripture also talks about women being properties of their fathers and then secularly properties of their husbands. So in today's society, if a woman or a father with daughters wants to move away from this, they are ostracized. Yes, and the whole idea of independent women is being rubbished by men who want to continue to have this power over women. Things have changed, and of course, there's so much more to talk about. The question still remains, who is a woman and what is a woman woman?

Raphael Harry [00:32:09]:

That's a great question. But like I said before we began recording, I'm happy for various moments that happened in my life which I consider cracks, because like you said about that question, who is a woman and what is a woman? The same person who had been referenced as being a father figure is a woman. Well, everybody will consider her a woman. And that's the strongest person I've ever met in my life. When it comes to physical strength, she when physically, she never I think she never went past primary education. Her intelligence, I put her intelligence up there with most people because philosophically, she had things. The way she saw life was just beautiful. It was poetry.

Raphael Harry [00:33:03]:

But physical strength, she was so strong. And if she knew that somebody touched me or touched her kids, man, I've seen her lift a man and slap that man. It was something that I was like, yeah, I'll go tell her. Touch me, I'll go tell her. But what I always love bringing her up is that whether it was physical strength, whether it was bringing solutions to problems, she could match any man out there. It was just wealth, cash that she didn't have. That was the only place where, okay, most people could beat her. Other than that, she could match anybody.

Raphael Harry [00:33:51]:

I'm like, no, I've seen somebody with my two eyes when they are saying men are superior. I'm like, the only place you can see because you control the cash. That's it.

Reverend Jide Macaulay  [00:34:02]:

Well, unfortunately, men no longer control the cash.

Raphael Harry [00:34:05]:

Exactly.

Reverend Jide Macaulay  [00:34:05]:

I think that the idea that people see that women are insignificant is because of the way that society has forced that narrative on women. And when we start to talk about wisdom generally, it's got nothing to do with how many degrees you've got. Again, I can bring my own personal example. My father is a highly learned person. My father has multiple PhD and doctorates behind his name. He's had a career that is diverse has becoming Nigeria's first automobile engineer to one of the top theologians that I have known. But yet he still lacked a basic understanding of inclusivity. Diversity and inclusion and equality.

Reverend Jide Macaulay  [00:35:02]:

Diversity and inclusion. But again, compared to my late mother, my mother was educated, but I would say she didn't have the accolade of an academic. But her wisdom, the way that she sees matters of difference, is incredible. Amazing. The way that she reaches owls to support people who are marginalized is astounding you understand me. And I've never seen my mom condemn never saw my mom condemn people on the margins. But unfortunately, I have witnessed my dad speak down on transgender people. I've seen my dad speak down on people living with HIV as an academic, as a religious leader.

Reverend Jide Macaulay  [00:35:48]:

And that is heartbreaking for me to see. But, I mean, again, we can talk about this in terms of men and women and most educated and people who do not have the education, but I think what is important is the humanity of the people that we're surrounded with. Again, people call me Mama Judy. Or I ask people to call me Mama Judy. I think it all started when I was at a wedding in Nigeria, and I was invited to pray for this married couple. And of course, my whole outfit, my agbada, was flowing in the wind of Lagos. Do you understand me? So this is me walking towards the couple to pray for them. So when I finished praying, I came back and took my seat with my friends.

Reverend Jide Macaulay  [00:36:42]:

And my friends looked at me and like, okay. I was trying to pick myself up in this moment. But it wasn't too long after that that my congregation started to call me Reverend Mother.

Raphael Harry [00:36:58]:

Wow.

Reverend Jide Macaulay  [00:37:00]:

And there was something about the maternal spirit or the motherly spirit that I have embodied. And I look at my mother, my late mother, for that spirit that I got that kind of loving, gentle motherly care. Now, unfortunately for me, I'm not saying this is not for everybody, I did not get the fatherly spirit from my dad. And people might turn around and say, well, your father wasn't there. That's why you're gay. No, my father was the opposite of my mother. My father, as far as I'm concerned I'm not trying to throw him under the bus, but he actually lacks the empathy for understanding difference. So even years later, decades later, when he came to know about my sexuality, the way he responded to it was different from the way that my mom responded to it.

Reverend Jide Macaulay  [00:37:51]:

And it's not that my mom was condoning anything. My mom had a better understanding. And then we're talking about people with academic abilities. My father with a PhD still does not understand homosexuality, but my mother got it.

Raphael Harry [00:38:07]:

You know, you're right on the humanity. And one thing I also find interesting is that Yoruba culture, the traditional Yoruba culture, is actually LGBTQ progressive.

Reverend Jide Macaulay  [00:38:28]:

Absolutely. I mean, I think a lot of African cultures are progressive when it comes to LGBT. It's not just the Yoruba. The, you know, the northern tribes of Nigeria and several other African communities understood LGBT people, even understanding siblings who are non-binary, non-conforming. And we're talking about people who are asking their pronouns to be they and them. This is something that is.

Raphael Harry [00:38:59]:

When we say our king. That phrase, our king, where it came from in Uganda, I've gotten what they are called. The tribe is in Uganda.

Reverend Jide Macaulay  [00:39:08]:

Is it Buganda?

Raphael Harry [00:39:10]:

Yes on AfroQueer podcast. The episode on The Buganda King. And it was a very good episode. And I was like, oh, it was well explained. And how when the British arrived there, they had a struggle with that.

Reverend Jide Macaulay  [00:39:32]:

The reality is that homosexuality before the colonizers and the missionaries did not have the name homosexuality. Yes, it was our way of life. Same-gender love exists in humanity, in our cultures, in our spirituality. Now, when we go back, we can date back some of the African spirituality, the gods the Shango and the oceans, and so on and so forth. You will find in the Yoruba culture, there are statues. There are crafted statues of men with erectile penises where they're holding on to each other's penis. And you can only begin to imagine what is this all about? It's about the fertility guard where they masturbate each other for the pleasure of spilling the seed for the ground. Now, of course, when the colonizers came and the missionaries came, they came with homophobia to most of the colonies.

Reverend Jide Macaulay  [00:40:42]:

They came with homophobia to the Global South. And unfortunately, we're still seeing the trend in the guise of conservative evangelical Christians who are still pushing the narrative of homophobia right down to Parliament. So look at Uganda and Ghana today. There are legislations that are being tabled to punish the LGBT community. In Uganda, there is a death sentence in the legislation to kill gay people.

Raphael Harry [00:41:13]:

On top of already, an already harsh situation already exists.

Reverend Jide Macaulay  [00:41:17]:

So you can imagine that as well. So we've begin to talk about homophobia in Africa. It came with colonialism. The laws that we are campaigning to repeal in the former British colony were laws that were brought by the British colonizers, which United Kingdom has since repealed in their own country. But unfortunately, Africans that have this deadlock kind of situation want to hold on to these ridiculous laws because it's profitable for their politics. It's profitable. I still do not understand the Christian leaders. Let me speak to the Christian leaders right now.

Reverend Jide Macaulay  [00:42:00]:

When Jesus said that there are two laws love the Lord your God with all your heart, do you understand me? The second one is to love your neighbors as yourself. Yet we've seen Christian bishops, and Christian leaders support laws that will kill another human being.

Raphael Harry [00:42:21]:

Yeah, that's what fascinates me. But we'll come back to this. We'll come back to this. We'll take a quick break and then we'll get into how you got into priesthood because you went into law. So I think, yeah, I'm interested to find out how you got into law and then from law became an. Yeah, because that's not the same as white. You went way like, way on the other side. We have to come back to what's happening in Africa.

Raphael Harry [00:43:06]:

Actually, a friend, my neighbor here, if her son wasn't sick, she probably would have come to the studio to see you, because she didn't believe me when I told her that I was interviewing you, she's Kenyan, and she actually sent me a protest. I will show you while we're on break of what's happening on the 23rd in Kenya. All right, so we'll take a quick break, and we shall be right back. Hi, everyone. If you're new to the podcast or a returning listener and you enjoy what we are doing here, did you know that you could enjoy more of our content and also support our work via Patreon? For as little as $3 per month, you get access to loads of bonus content that you'll find nowhere and be the first to latest news. Don't miss out. Go to Patreon.com Whitelabelamericanpod or just search for White Label American podcast on Patreon. P-A-T-R-E-O-N.

Raphael Harry [00:44:07]:

All right. Welcome back. Thank you for staying with us. So one quick thing before we begin. When I arrived in Bahrain, some of my shipmates used to be, like, they were having, like, a culture shock moment, and they were known, I can't understand these Bahrainis. I think the men here, a lot of them are gay, which is a whole different conversation about that. But you will see men walking on the streets, and they are holding each other's hands. And it wasn't just the Arabs.

Raphael Harry [00:44:45]:

People from India, they do it a lot. The Indian subcontinent. India. Bangladesh. Pakistan. Nepal. You see men just walking on the streets holding hands. And I was like, that's your conclusion for how people become gay? Like, hey, man, what men holding hands? And they're not even talking about the men doing the kiss on the cheeks.

Raphael Harry [00:45:08]:

It's just men holding hands. Men are just holding each other's shoulders, being comfortable around men in their own spaces. It was like, love. People from the United States were like, wow, this is a surprise to see why this man just and I was like, Actually, I used to do that in Pataka with my boys. It was okay. Like, I had one of the guys who, if you're walking too slow, would just hold your hand. Come on, let's go cross the street for you to cross the street. And I was like, oh, I don't miss some of this.

Raphael Harry [00:45:39]:

Whenever I thought for once that this made me gay because my boy held my hands or we held hands, and we held each other's shoulders on the streets, I remember talking to some of my boys. We had, like, a group conference call, but just checking on the boys back home and sorry. I love you guys, man. No homo. Since when we start saying no homo when, you know, just like, man, so even now, somebody has to get one or two boys. Like, if you're my boy and we're really cool, it doesn't cost me anything to say. I love you. I love you.

Raphael Harry [00:46:16]:

If I love you and I still have one of my boys, he still can't stop saying that. No, home. I'm like, Dude, you sound lame. Do you have something you need to go figure it out? Work on it. It's not with me. But if I love you and I say, I love you, man. I love you, bro. Handshake.

Raphael Harry [00:46:36]:

All right, bye. See you. Send me a text. I love you, man. Just think about you. Just want to let's say I love you.

Reverend Jide Macaulay  [00:46:43]:

I think men should say I love you to other men.

Raphael Harry [00:46:46]:

No homo. I'm like, why? No homo. What does that mean? It means work on whatever. Tell your boy you love him. Tell your brother you love him. It doesn't have to be your blood relative. I love my boys. There's nothing wrong with that.

Raphael Harry [00:47:01]:

But Bahrain was what? Yeah.

Reverend Jide Macaulay  [00:47:04]:

I think the fact that we come into a society that seems to romanticize relationships between men is quite threatening to the culture of patriarchy.

Raphael Harry [00:47:16]:

Yes.

Reverend Jide Macaulay  [00:47:17]:

And I think that if more men will say to other men, I love you, it will help with their mental health and anxiety. And I think that the absence of that is part of the problem. Now, men holding men, and boys holding boys'hands is never a problem until homophobia was introduced into many cultures. And unfortunately now in a place like Nigeria yes. If you say to another man, I love you, you will get this kind of response. No homo. It's simply because the society landscape has shifted towards hatred, has shifted towards fear. These are things that never happened.

Reverend Jide Macaulay  [00:47:56]:

The African culture was very, very accepting of same-gender behavior and same-gender spaces. Just because a man holds a man's hand doesn't mean that they are in a romantic relationship. We've changed it. We've created a culture of fear instead of helping people love each other. I currently live in Manchester England, and there are many projects that support men because the suicide rate amongst men is way higher than the suicide rate amongst women. Not that it's competition, but men are taking their own lives in terrible circumstances and higher percentages, which is the shock when there's so much pressure on men, it causes more problems. It activates so much of their mental health crisis.

Raphael Harry [00:48:51]:

I agree. So with that being said, you attended college for law. Was there any reason why you chose law?

Reverend Jide Macaulay  [00:49:02]:

Well, I mean, like many African children or children of Africans, your profession is already decided for you. When you were born in my family, it was no difference. Of course. My dad in particular had decided what profession each and every one of his children are going to be. My older brother was going to be an accountant. I was going to be the lawyer. My younger brother was going to be the engineer. And I think my sisters had various other professions that were assigned to them.

Reverend Jide Macaulay  [00:49:39]:

But the reality is that many of us tried to become the profession that our parents wanted. I knew that I was not the academic person in my family. My older brother was, and he's actually late now, may he rest in peace. Now, he actually did his best. He became an accountant. Not just any accountant, he was a forensic accountant.

Raphael Harry [00:50:07]:

Oh, wow.

Reverend Jide Macaulay  [00:50:08]:

My younger brother, yes, became an engineer. He did a lot of work in transportation, that field of engineering. And of course, my younger sister became a beauty therapist. And then my other sister, she became an engineer. I became a lawyer. Now of course, the law is interesting, as you will find it, but I also had my earlier legal career with the Crown Prosecution Service in the UK. So I worked for the prosecutor's office for twelve years, but I was not happy. Now, I mean, your parents might decide your profession, but you need to decide if you're going to be happy with this.

Reverend Jide Macaulay  [00:50:49]:

I think that there's nothing wrong with parents making suggestions or guiding their children towards a career that is lucrative and is great and there is great respect, but they need to also be mindful of the strength of those children. You put a lot of pressure on those children to get the grades. Now, I would have been very happy to be a tailor, sewing clothes and making garments. And I know today there are many people I know who are tailors who have learned the craft of fashion design. They all have high street names, and stores after them, which is not a bad thing. You don't need a university education to be a graphic designer if you're good at designing, and it's just one of those things. And of course, if you want to become a chef or a cook or any other trade, as long as you are happy, that's what is important. But I think parents don't understand that.

Reverend Jide Macaulay  [00:51:45]:

I mean, I became a lawyer because of the pressure from my family. But of course, when it was time for me to set everything aside, I started to focus on becoming a theologian, a pastor, and like many things, it didn't happen at the end of my legal career. My journey to becoming a priest started when I was probably about 13 years old. Yeah, I believe that in the moment of my baptism, I believe that God called me in that time. And of course, when I found myself at age 13 reading the Bible quite seriously and quite religiously, I came across all the Bible passages that you can imagine about homosexuality. About homosexuality. And that really gave me a level of discomfort because I didn't understand it. And of course, a 13 year old is not in a theological school.

Reverend Jide Macaulay  [00:52:47]:

That is why I would say today, anyone listening to this podcast, if you have a Bible, lock it away from your teenage children. They don't need to be reading the Bible they don't need it. The Bible is it has to be rated, to be quite honest. The Old Testament, for example, has a lot of violence in it.

Raphael Harry [00:53:11]:

Yes.

Reverend Jide Macaulay  [00:53:11]:

And it teaches so much against women. It teaches about the oppression of women. It teaches about killing people who don't agree with you, wiping out a whole community because they offended your community. That's the Old Testament. But I'm not saying the entire Old Testament. The Old Testament also have the Book of Psalms, the Songs of Solomon. It has other beautiful stories and narratives as well that are great. But the New Testament is the best part of the Bible because it comes with a story of redemption.

Reverend Jide Macaulay  [00:53:45]:

The Old Testament stories. Pre scientific period. A lot of stories come pre scientific. The New Testament is where we begin to talk about the know. Jesus Christ walked among the people, came for the know. The disciples of Jesus Christ encouraged the know to follow the way of Christ, to bring peace to the world. That's the New Testament. Do you understand me? But of know people look at scriptures very different, but for a young person, and I'm saying know because of my own personal experience and many others, for young people, it needs to be age appropriate.

Reverend Jide Macaulay  [00:54:23]:

So I think that anyone over the age of 18 can be encouraged to read the Bible, not a 13 year old, and it's not because of my sexuality. If a 13 year old reads the Bible, they can easily become those hardcore patriarchal people, especially when we're talking about boys. The Bible says that women should be me, all of those things, but without having the better understanding of how this is used. In what context is this being used? I mean, even the Bible passage that says that women should not speak in the church if you read it properly, it's talking to a particular woman saying, do not speak here. Go home and ask your husband. Not every woman who speaks in church has a husband at home they can go back to. And what makes it appropriate that a woman should go home and ask a husband? How about if the woman is the one with a pearl of better wisdom than a husband? She's been sent home to act. And we've seen cultures where we say that women don't speak true, but they speak through the men.

Reverend Jide Macaulay  [00:55:37]:

The men speak for them. And I think sometimes these are very wrong. But anyway, going back to how I moved from how I studied theology, I studied law, and then went to theology, I've always known that I wanted to be a minister when I was young. But at age 13, I've never been to career opportunities that navigate towards work in the church. But I want to say to anyone working in the church, especially if you are a pastor, a priest, or a minister, or even if you're in the mosque, you're an imam in the temple, you're a rabbi or any other religious leadership position. You are a social worker. You are not God. You are a social worker.

Reverend Jide Macaulay  [00:56:21]:

You are there to provide pastoral support for the people. You're not there to oppress them, you're not there to marginalize them, you're not there to lord it over them. So we need to be mindful. The Pope is not God. The Archbishop is not God. They are social workers. They help guide the people whether they are part of your religious communities or know. This is where I really like the Anglican Church or the Church of England, to be specific, in the parishes.

Reverend Jide Macaulay  [00:56:57]:

Every church in the Church of England has parishes. They have a parish boundary, okay? So geographically, anyone that resides in the parish boundary automatically has access to the priest for about everything or anything that they want. So, I mean, if let's just say for if there's a gentleman in my parish church who want to complete a housing application form and they cannot do it, they can call on the priest to help them complete it even if.

Raphael Harry [00:57:33]:

They are not Anglican.

Reverend Jide Macaulay  [00:57:34]:

Even if they're not Anglican. Even if they're not a member of the church. But the fact that they live in the parish, they have access to the priest.

Raphael Harry [00:57:40]:

Okay?

Reverend Jide Macaulay  [00:57:41]:

Now, if you're doing your passport identification thing, you don't go to the Anglican, you can call because the priest is listed as one of the people that can affirm your identity. So you can go to the priest and say, I've just completed my passport application form, I need someone to verify my identity. You don't have to be a member of the church. This is part of the problem I've seen with many church denominations where if you're not a member of the church, you do not have access to the minister in that church. So if you're not a member of the church but you're giving birth to a baby and you want your baby christening, they will say, sorry, you're not a member of the church. If you give birth to a child and you want your child baptized in some churches, the church will say, sorry, you're not our member, we can't baptize you. But the reality is that we're all members of Christ's body. I think I understand I do not understand this whole membership thing that people claim on.

Reverend Jide Macaulay  [00:58:35]:

If you live in that region, in that area, you should have access to your religious minister as a standard and it's not because you're a member of their congregation.

Raphael Harry [00:58:48]:

So before I get to my question, one quick thing I'll say is on your point about rating being on the Bible, I like that point. I think that's very necessary. My final year of secondary school or high school for American audience, a friend of mine presented a letter to me that he wanted me to give to a girl he had his eyes on. So it was a love letter. And after an experience the previous year, I no longer just delivered letters that were given to me. I made sure I went through the letter so that my rep did not get tarnished. So I went through the letter and I was like, wow, this letter sounds so familiar to me. And I went over the letter again.

Raphael Harry [00:59:42]:

I was like, this reads like a Bible passage. So I called the boy back. I was like, did you come up with this whole love letter, this poem yourself? He said, oh, no, I copied it from the songs of Solomon and Private. But my friend, take this letter back. You copied the whole Bible passage, and you're trying to present it to a girl. This is me telling you that I'm interested in you. So I think that speaks to younglings not knowing, not understanding the Bible.

Reverend Jide Macaulay  [01:00:12]:

Someone did an experiment some time ago. They took words from the Bible and presented it without telling what chapter and verse they did as a social experiment to people and said, we have seen that video. Yeah, you seen that video. Where did this word come from? People thought they were words from Muslim community. But again, this is how people misunderstand that. I mean, slavery was justified exactly, subjugation of women and so on. But a lot of people, because we're so accustomed and our focus is always on the New Testament, we forget how bad the Old Testament is in terms of because you can copy some things in the Old Testament that is absolutely scary. And that is why I'm seriously, as a kid of X rating the Old Testament and making sure that it is age appropriate, I'm in favor of children's Bible because you protect their innocence and you protect their mind.

Reverend Jide Macaulay  [01:01:19]:

But I'm not saying that people should not be inquisitive, but of course, that inquisitivity need to be guided. What I did not get as a 13 year old gay boy growing up in Nigeria is I didn't have access to pastoral care. When I read all of the parts in Bible about homosexuality, there was nobody to explain them to me. That, hold on, today this is not what it meant. Because again, even today when we talk about homosexuality, people are telling me, show me the Scripture. The Scripture doesn't always speak about everything. The Scripture is not the final decision about everything in the life we live. When Jesus Christ was walking on planet Earth, there was no penicillin, there was no aeroplane, and there was no iPhone.

Reverend Jide Macaulay  [01:02:08]:

So we need to be speaking today around the wisdom that we got. And I love what Jesus Christ said to his disciples. At one point, he said, I'm going away. I will send the advocates the Holy Spirit that will teach you new things. We all have the opportunity to learn new things through the power of the Holy Spirit. So we learn so many things. We get the wisdom through the Holy Spirit and a lot of people that also when we read the bible, we also need to read other literatures that were written around the time the bibles were written. So if anybody want to talk about the 21st century in religious terms, then maybe we should also read books that have been written.

Reverend Jide Macaulay  [01:03:03]:

I'm talking both fiction and nonfiction that were written in the 21st century that's got nothing to do with religious texts. That's why you see that in islam, they always have the hadith. They have the additional books that explain some of the things that they're trying to say in the quran. And I think it's important that we also apply similar things to other religious texts as well. So if a part of the bible is written as century, perhaps maybe reading other writings in the first century outside of the religious text might help us understand the language at the time. And I think that sometimes when we look at words, like when people talk about sodom and gomorrah, and the people came to lost house, bring out the men so that we may know them, the key word there is know them. Which word was used? In what phrase was it used? What's the interpretation? Now I'm sitting here with you, and I say, I would like to get to know you. Does it mean, I'm saying that I want to have sex with you?

Raphael Harry [01:04:15]:

No, thank you.

Reverend Jide Macaulay  [01:04:16]:

It means I want to get to know you. Give me your profile, give me your biography, let me know your background, let me know your family, and so on and so forth. But unfortunately, with time, that could also change its meaning, because, again, people, I mean, documenting scriptures took time as well. There were centuries between the oral the oral journey of scriptures to the written self. And that is why I always say to people that we must have a lot of patience when it comes to religious texts. We need to have a better understanding of the intentions of those who collected the bible together, those who bound all those different books together and gave us the bible.

Raphael Harry [01:05:08]:

So with that being said, how do you feel about okay, let me see. There was a story that I came across from BBC africa today, and that was, I think, three years ago, about three years ago, either just for the pandemic or during the pandemic. Just when the pandemic began, there was a far right group in Spain, kind of like a cyber farm, and all they did was just create memes and target african accounts on twitter and facebook and just send homophobic messages towards them every day and just promote these hate messages. But how do you feel about your fellow ministers on the continent providing cover for such people, like backing such messages up, instead of acting as places of sanctuary and places of love and places where people from the LGBTQ communities could be welcomed? And always acting like anytime LGBTQ is brought up, they're like, oh, these are the first people to speak against them. When we have more serious issues on the continent that require attention, and we don't hear those voices being the first to speak up, but it's like, oh, as soon as homosexuality is brought up, yeah, we are the first to this is abomination to god. That's one of the first issues that.

Reverend Jide Macaulay  [01:06:54]:

Always unites honestly to me. There's a great waste of time and resources when religious groups group together to campaign against the LGBT community. I think that we know today that both the religious communities and the political community are avoiding the real issues in their communities. I'm not saying this ingest at all. There are religious leaders that are highly corrupt.

Raphael Harry [01:07:29]:

True.

Reverend Jide Macaulay  [01:07:30]:

And there are religious leaders whose life are also very awful. But in order to cover their own track, they need a distraction. They're distracting the people. I'm not against religious leaders who are multimillionaires or who have private jets, but you have to ask yourself a question. If you're doing something and you don't want people to find out about it, you defect onto somebody else. Now, let's look at it even from scripture's position. There were two people praying to god to forgive them their sins, and one of them turned around and said, god, my sin is not as bad as the sin of this other person. What's the purpose of that? You are detracting the fact that you have got your own issues, but you want to project it to this other person.

Reverend Jide Macaulay  [01:08:20]:

And before anyone says anything else, I just want to make it clear that homosexuality is not a sin. Let me say that again. Homosexuality is not a sin. Homosexuality is like saying, I am a black person. And does that make it wrong? No. So I think we need to understand that. But you see, when it comes to the fact that people focus on LGBT persons and they ignore the other issues, you aid and abet the hatred. You aid and abet the you you look at the violence that LGBT people are suffering, and you're not addressing that.

Reverend Jide Macaulay  [01:09:00]:

And we've seen it all over the continent of Africa. Let me speak for Nigeria in this instance, where a gay person is attacked, even though there are witnesses, this case is reported to the police. The police come along, you point out the assailant. All the assailant needs to say is that I actually caused this injury to Jide because he is a homosexual. Then I get arrested by the police, and my assailant walks free. In what world is that justified? And then we now have religious communities that are colluding with that hatred. To be quite honest, I don't want Jesus Christ to weep again because he already wept once. But if anything at all, Jesus Christ is this this body of homophobic transphobic religious people cutting Christ to cry again over Christ's loving children?

Raphael Harry [01:10:05]:

So what words of advice and encouragement would you offer to LGBT individuals navigating their own faith journeys within I have?

Reverend Jide Macaulay  [01:10:17]:

So much to say to LGBT people navigating I say just love yourself because God loves you. You have nothing to apologize about. I said this so many times that no one has a monopoly on the presence of God. We are uniquely created by God to have that access to God. You see, religious leaders are not God, so they have nothing to say about you. You are here to fulfill your own life and enjoy yourself. God has blessed you to be who you are. Have pleasure in it, enjoy yourself.

Reverend Jide Macaulay  [01:10:50]:

Jesus Christ said, love God with all your heart and love your neighbor as yourself. If we fall short of those two things, there is absolutely nothing to gain. Now, I also say to queer people, I say this all the time, and a lot of people don't like the word queer, but I like the word queer. I like the word LGBT. The acronym works for me. So for everyone that is lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgender, and our families and friends and our allies, I want to say to you that G-A-Y means God adores you, god accepts you. If you like me and you want to be a priest, let me reassure you right now, god anoints you. I mean, scripture tells us especially there are two scriptures.

Reverend Jide Macaulay  [01:11:33]:

Jeremiah, one, four to five says that God knew us before we were formed in our mother's womb. Right? God knew us before we're formed in our mother's womb and consecrated us prophets over nations. A lot of people still don't know that. I'm not just claiming this for the queer community. I'm claiming this for everybody. And also for LGBT persons who have a heart for God. Come just as you are. Because Psalm 139, I believe, between verses 13 and 15 says, for we are fearfully and wonderfully made when people turn on and say, god made Adam and Eve and not Adam and know Steve didn't fall out of the sky.

Reverend Jide Macaulay  [01:12:15]:

God made Adam and Steve and also made Madam and Evelyn. So everybody is loved by God. Do you understand me? And I think it would take a much longer time for us to even go into the scriptures of creation and begin to understand the creation of God. People sometimes always believe God made one man and one woman. Not so God made there many men and many women. And of course, we know that the example that is primarily given to us about heteronormativity is great, but it doesn't discount or dismiss the fact that our same-gender loving relationship. After all, if we're to believe the Bible that God made one man, one woman, Adam and Eve. Adam and Eve gave birth to twins, Cain and Abel.

Reverend Jide Macaulay  [01:13:03]:

Cain killed Abel and then he was able to find a wife for himself. Where did she come from? If god did not create other people.

Raphael Harry [01:13:12]:

True.

Reverend Jide Macaulay  [01:13:13]:

So I think that we have to slow down and begin to unpack. That is why I said earlier on that for me, as an individual, I got to a place where I have to unlearn what I've been taught that was hateful and harmful about the Scripture and begin to learn new things. And this is where I believe that Jesus Christ was speaking to his disciples and also speaking to many of us that I will send the Holy Spirit that will teach you new things. The things that I've learned today are new things, and they are inclusive and affirming of same-gender loving individuals who love the Lord with all of their heart and want to worship. We talk about dancing.

Raphael Harry [01:13:55]:

Yes.

Reverend Jide Macaulay  [01:13:58]:

Honestly speaking, this is no competition. Maybe you want to drive this competition, put all the LGBT people on the dance floor and put straight people on the dance floor and see who's going to be the best dancer.

Raphael Harry [01:14:11]:

Nice. That's not fair. Now, I'm not going to stand on that. I'll be the judge. I volunteer to be a judge instead.

Reverend Jide Macaulay  [01:14:23]:

But having said that, talking about dancing, also, the LGBT people are God's people who are blessed with so much creativity.

Raphael Harry [01:14:33]:

Yes.

Reverend Jide Macaulay  [01:14:34]:

And I say that because when we look at the songs and the hymns that were composed over the past thousands of years or hundreds of years, they were mostly created composed by LGBT persons. And we cannot deny that. And if we take all the songs that were composed by LGBT people out of the church, there'll be no more songs left.

Raphael Harry [01:15:01]:

There you go.

Reverend Jide Macaulay  [01:15:02]:

I love your reaction on that.

Raphael Harry [01:15:05]:

No, I have seen some things, but I have enough time to go there. So you know what? I would just segue into a fun topic from there. So staying with dancing, we already know that you're a dancer. So from there, we'll go into music. We need you to give us everybody who comes on this podcast is considered a dancer. If you say dance, dance, we'll stop recording and kick you out of the studio right now. But we know, since we already know that you're a dancer, we can't do that. You can't even deny it anymore.

Raphael Harry [01:15:48]:

So we needed to give us at least three artists that keep you dancing for at least an hour. So a minimum of three artists. Three or four artists that can keep you dancing for an hour. And you don't have to give us the most popular names. We like to do discovery. So if you want to give us somebody that's local to Manchester or to judo, it's up to you. But yeah, we like to discover know, and add to our playlist.

Reverend Jide Macaulay  [01:16:15]:

Absolutely. Fella anikula kukuti. Yeah, I know. I just quite honestly mean I'm glad I didn't have time to think about this.

Raphael Harry [01:16:31]:

We'll try to catch up with you.

Reverend Jide Macaulay  [01:16:32]:

Yeah, I think. Goodness me. Oh, my God. This guy? Well, you consider him popular. I think he's called is it Uche. The one that sang running to me. Well, of course, there's also Simisola. Okay.

Raphael Harry [01:16:51]:

Nobody has given I mean, Simisola has.

Reverend Jide Macaulay  [01:16:54]:

Some really good songs that get you dancing, some quite romantic songs as well. I think there's a song that she was talking about, called My Number or something like that, which I love so much.

Raphael Harry [01:17:07]:

Okay.

Reverend Jide Macaulay  [01:17:09]:

Who else can I well, I mean, I said fella. You didn't want fella. Fella is too popular.

Raphael Harry [01:17:13]:

A lot of people have dropped. We have to add his name to the most popular. It's like giving us Beyonce or Michael Jackson. Come on, come on, you can't do that.

Reverend Jide Macaulay  [01:17:25]:

Okay, what I think about the other.

Raphael Harry [01:17:27]:

Two, just we can talk about something else. Okay. The next question will be on cuisine.

Reverend Jide Macaulay  [01:17:40]:

Okay.

Raphael Harry [01:17:41]:

You've been to a few places around the world, and when it comes to your go-to cuisine, has it changed from your number one cuisine from back home, or are you still as loyal as they come?

Reverend Jide Macaulay  [01:17:58]:

Actually, I think I'm still loyal, but it has also changed. I do like Italian food, obviously. I think it's somewhere between Italian and Spanish food. I mean, with Italian, it would be a lot of pasta with a lot of meatballs. But again, Spanish food will be pyla. And it also depends on who's making it because Pyla always reminds me of fried rice or jollof rice because it's of those things depending on who's making it as yeah, but nothing beats Amala and Begiri with a away, too, so let's stay focused.

Raphael Harry [01:18:43]:

My wife appreciates Amala. She's German.

Reverend Jide Macaulay  [01:18:46]:

There you go.

Raphael Harry [01:18:49]:

She loves pounded yam, too, but she makes pounded yam. But she knows that once she makes that one, she's not getting up anymore. Once she eats pounded yam, she's like, I.

Reverend Jide Macaulay  [01:19:01]:

Just remember an artist. Is it called Dakolo?

Raphael Harry [01:19:04]:

Dakolo.

Reverend Jide Macaulay  [01:19:05]:

The guy who.

Raphael Harry [01:19:11]:

I haven't heard him in a while, but yeah.

Reverend Jide Macaulay  [01:19:13]:

Okay. There you go. So I think that's my second one.

Raphael Harry [01:19:16]:

Okay. Getting there, right?

Reverend Jide Macaulay  [01:19:21]:

I think I will close with God. What's Mercy's second name? Mercy is a gospel musician.

Raphael Harry [01:19:28]:

Oh, the woman who passed away?

Reverend Jide Macaulay  [01:19:30]:

No, she's still alive.

Raphael Harry [01:19:32]:

Okay. No, I was thinking of somebody else.

Reverend Jide Macaulay  [01:19:35]:

Honestly, her song always comes over me she's Nigerian, right? Yeah, she's Nigerian.

Raphael Harry [01:19:41]:

Okay.

Reverend Jide Macaulay  [01:19:43]:

All the artists I give you are Nigerians, and I don't even where you go.

Raphael Harry [01:19:49]:

Nigerian gospel artist. Let me Google that quickly. Nigerian gospel artist. Messi artist named up the wrong spelling. Messi.

Reverend Jide Macaulay  [01:20:05]:

Messi. I'm trying to remember Messi's. Second.

Raphael Harry [01:20:16]:

Messi chinwo.

Reverend Jide Macaulay  [01:20:17]:

That's the one.

Raphael Harry [01:20:18]:

Okay. Yeah. That's the first name that came up on Google. Yeah. All right.

Reverend Jide Macaulay  [01:20:22]:

Messi Chinwo and Timmy. I think it's running to me. It was a duet with Semisola.

Raphael Harry [01:20:41]:

Okay.

Reverend Jide Macaulay  [01:20:42]:

Or you can just go with okay.

Raphael Harry [01:20:45]:

All right. You made it.

Reverend Jide Macaulay  [01:20:48]:

But you see, honestly, this is also me about being a very proud Nigerian. I do love Nigerian music, and I think Nigerians are one of the greatest artists when it comes to music. The music beats are just incredible. Even some of the musicians that become very unpopular lately. I'm not going to mention names, but I think sometimes I love the boldness of Nigerians to break ground.

Raphael Harry [01:21:15]:

I've certain views on Nigerian music, but I don't have enough time to go there now because I have to start wrapping up. Well, I can't thank you enough for coming on the podcast. I really appreciate you coming here to share this great insight. And yes, this has been beautiful. So we have to do a part two down the line. Maybe I get you and Uche both.

Reverend Jide Macaulay  [01:21:41]:

Uche's.

Raphael Harry [01:21:42]:

Actually, Uche is in Atlanta. He's now moved to Atlanta. And Uche in know I don't know if you know Moji Salon. She's also in Texas. Texas. Seems Nigeria's headquarters anyway. But we have to wrap up with a final question. What would you like to leave the audience with? I know you've dropped a lot of gems, so this is your freestyle moment.

Reverend Jide Macaulay  [01:22:07]:

Indeed, indeed. I would like to leave the listeners with an understanding that there is nothing strange about being lesbian, gay, bisexual, or transgender. These are new terms, they're new phrases that come to describe the communities. And of course, I think that we've also come to a time where same-gender loving individuals are defining their own pathway in life because queer people marry the opposite sex to persevere in their family, to be able to continue a pattern of inheritance. But I think that the moment we get into a time where we have freedom, we are demanding that freedom to be who we are and love who we love. And I think that's really key. I mean, the one thing I will also say is that by virtue of my own journey of reconciling my faith and sexuality, if there's anyone out there who is the lesbian or gay, bisexual, transgender, nonconforming number, and you have always thought of becoming a religious leader, you can do so. You can do so.

Reverend Jide Macaulay  [01:23:26]:

You need to find an inclusive and affirming community. You need to find the academic pathway for you. And it is available. If you can't find it, get in touch with me. That's what I'll say. And finally, I also want to speak to parents of LGBT people. Parents of LGBT people. Relatives are uncles and aunties.

Reverend Jide Macaulay  [01:23:49]:

It is time that you stop listening to religious leaders telling you that your LGBT children and family members are demon-possessed. We're not demonic possessed. We love God, we love our family. We love you. But we need you to create a safe environment and a soft landing so that we can be ourselves and fulfill our full potential. And that to me, is very, very important. And of course, finally, to religious leaders who are homophobic, I believe that your time is up. You have been hiding behind the scriptures.

Reverend Jide Macaulay  [01:24:29]:

But we also know that the Scripture tells us about how fabulous we are, how wonderful we are, and how much God loves us. So it is time that we team up together and be the inclusive church and be the place where all people are welcome and not just those that you seek to oppress.

Raphael Harry [01:24:50]:

Thank you. Thank you. Mbana, Eshe gon, Dankasheschon, and I forgot the one Uche bonga Siabonga Sante Sana, which taught me a new one. There's one that taught me from Abrib, I can't recall, but some I learned from Gambia. I've gotten so many from over 153 episodes from around the world. So you keep getting thank yous from everywhere, but please let people know where they can find you and how they can get in touch with you.

Reverend Jide Macaulay  [01:25:19]:

Absolutely. I mean, I'm the founder of House of Rainbow, so if you search for House of Rainbow on social media, you can find us on Instagram, Twitter, Facebook, and Clubhouse, and my name is JDay. McCauley. That's J-I-D-E Macaulay. And you can find me also on social media on most mean. I do encourage people to send a direct message if you know, to start the conversation, and we hope to be able to support you wherever you are.

Raphael Harry [01:25:51]:

All right, you have all that in the show notes. Be on the lookout, and I will have all that for you and you can get in touch. Judy is a great guy. Trust me, he'll respond. All right, thank you, listeners. Appreciate you all. Keep in touch. Leave comments if you have any comments.

Raphael Harry [01:26:09]:

And keep the love coming in. Share with your friends and loved ones. Even if you have a secret family, share it with them. Buy our merch too. Keep the love. And thank you for the privilege of your company. See you in the next episode. Thanks for listening to White Label American.

Raphael Harry [01:26:24]:

If you enjoyed the show, please give a five-star review on your favorite podcast app. You can follow the show on all social media platforms. Visit the White Label American website for links, donations, episodes, feedback, guests, messages, and newsletters. Don't forget to download the free White Label American app on the Google Play Store and Apple. Coming soon. Thank you for the privilege of your company.