Ep 158: Learning from Stunt Work and Martial Arts to Excel in Creative Pursuits ft Kenny Wong

Raphael Harry [00:00:00]:

Welcome to White Label American Podcast. This is a podcast that brings you bold, in-depth interviews with interesting people that are mostly immigrants taking down artificial walls one story at a time. This is a podcast that empowers immigrants to share their stories and listen to those of others. Thank you for joining us. Welcome to another episode of White Label American. Thank you all for joining us today. I'm your host, Rafael Harry. And before we begin, I would like to say thank you to everyone who's been supporting us. Thank you for the five Stars. And if you're brand new or you're a longtime listener who hasn't given us five stars or hasn't bought our merch, hey, what are you waiting for? Go do that, please. We need your support. So something I've been forgetting to do all this time is to let you guys who have been listening only on the podcast platforms out there or on our app, yes, you can listen on the White Label American app. It's available on your Google Play store. There's a video. You can watch this podcast. You can watch the video broadcast of this podcast, but it's not available on YouTube. On YouTube is only the audio you get. You have to join patreon. So, yes, you pay for that one. That's what it is. I'm a black capitalist. It's different from capitalists, the regular capitalist there. So, yes, part of the support you can give this podcast. So buy merchandise, join our Patreon for as low as $3, and you can watch the videos and bonus content out there. So, yes, I remember today, and I will remember going forward to remind you all to watch the video. If you want to watch the video, you have that option. It's available to you. So with that being said, enough about that. You guys know how to support the things to do. Share with your friends, your loved ones, your enemies, your enemies, best friend, whatever. Share. Just keep sharing. Okay, enough. Let me see my voice. Too much. Let's go meet today's guest. I have the honor of meeting well, I had the honor of meeting today's guest at the Indie it was called the Indie Podcast. No. My say podcast. The Indie Comics Festival, right?

Kenny Wong [00:02:38]:

The Independent Comics Creator Showcase.

Raphael Harry [00:02:41]:

Showcase. Yes. I was at the event last year thanks to our previous guest, Sean Hill. And I was like, wow, it was a very small event last year. And then this year it grew a little bit, and I was like, this is going to be one of my favorite events. It's in the industry. Brooklyn industry city. And when I saw his work, I was just like, man, I'm in love. I'm in love right there. And it's rare to see my little one fall in love with black and white arts, that kid. That's why I can't go on the Maurice show anymore because she just does stuff. And I'm like, yeah, I can't because that's me. That's just me. She loves his work, too. So with that being said, let's meet SAG nominated artist stuntman from Brooklyn. He has worked in film and TV for the past 20 years, and he's recently added comic book artists, and comic artists as his second career. And he's presently working on People Die with Dan Panosian and Joe Ross. There's more to him, but we'll stop there because he's going to give us all the details and more juice, as we say on this podcast. So welcome to the show. Kenny Wong. How are you doing today?

Kenny Wong [00:04:09]:

Thanks, Raph. I'm doing well. And that was too kind of an opening introduction for me.

Raphael Harry [00:04:17]:

There's a lot I left out, but you deserve a lot more than that. But, yeah, we were saving all the good stuff. There's a lot more good stuff. But I could go more and more. I could go on and on. But Josh will have to come and say, you got to keep it down to like, 1 minute. But I'm always glad and honored to have talented people. I like meeting creatives, and I've just been blessed to it's not like I planned it, but I've just been blessed to always interact with creative people. And even before I started a podcast at Comic-Con, I think it was 2017, Comic Con, Sanford Green, I was talking to him at Javits Center, and he said I should think about having my podcast as a comic book. So probably a graphic novel. And still, at the back of my mind, when next I see him, I know he's going to ask me about that. So I'm like, but I've always been interacting with creative people.

Kenny Wong [00:05:27]:

You should get Sanford. He's awesome.

Raphael Harry [00:05:29]:

Yeah. He wasn't at Comic-Con last year, so I hope he was.

Kenny Wong [00:05:35]:

I saw him.

Raphael Harry [00:05:35]:

Did you see him? Yeah, I went down the artist galley twice. I didn't see him.

Kenny Wong [00:05:40]:

I saw him. I actually saw him at the airport when I was picking up another artist, and he was there waiting for his Uber, and we were just hanging out, and we took a picture together. Yeah, he was there last year, but.

Raphael Harry [00:05:54]:

I asked someone else, and someone said they hadn't seen him. Well, I have to do better homework then. All right. I hope he's there this time because I brought stuff for him to sign. But anyway, we're back on track. But I have to get him. So with that being said, let's go back to your very origins, your beginning. Start from the very beginning. So what's the meaning of your names, and is there a story about how you came to have those names?

Kenny Wong [00:06:28]:

Which name? Gengha.

Raphael Harry [00:06:31]:

Oh, yeah, I forgot to mention the artistic names, too. So start with your main name and then your artistic name, if you want to give me that, too.

Kenny Wong [00:06:44]:

Oh, Kenny was just my birth name because I'm born in Brooklyn, and I use Genga because I'm a huge fan of Otomo Katsuhiro, the creator of Akira, and he had an exhibition called Genga. And then I found out, like, in Japanese, it just means original art. And I kind of like that, and I just used it as Genga. Genga Jaws. And I call myself that.

Raphael Harry [00:07:10]:

Wow.

Kenny Wong [00:07:12]:

Yeah.

Raphael Harry [00:07:14]:

So nobody else had taken that name, Gengha? Yeah.

Kenny Wong [00:07:21]:

No.

Raphael Harry [00:07:22]:

Wow.

Kenny Wong [00:07:23]:

And actually, Kenny Wong my normal name. That's the most generic name because I found out there are, like, hundreds of Kenny Wong. There's another comic book artist named Kenny Wong. And at the comic stores that I go to, they've told me, like, oh, there's another Kenny Wong that shops here. He was just then there's I've seen some other people that are either stunts or actors named Kenny Wong, and they've been mistakenly credited with some of my work, and I get credited for their work, and I'm like, Should I change my name?

Raphael Harry [00:07:56]:

That's why I had to ask you about the nomination first, because when I looked on IMDb, I was like, Dang, that's waiting, how many Kenny Wongs? Like, wow. I didn't realize there were quite a few Kenny Wongs.

Kenny Wong [00:08:12]:

I actually should update that. I don't really normally care to update it, but yeah, I should. And had, like, a picture of myself so that it's distinguishable from everybody else.

Raphael Harry [00:08:24]:

That would help because I kind of looked and I was like, okay, there should be no photo. I thought there were usually photos on IMDb.

Kenny Wong [00:08:31]:

Actually, I just found out something really hilarious. I was on the YouTube rabbit hole and I saw something on the feed on YouTube that says Chinese gangster stories from New York City. And then one of the headlines was naming all these gangsters names, and then one of them was Kenny Wong. And they were all talking about their life as gangsters. And I found that pretty hilarious because there's a Kenny Wong gangster and I'm not. That.

Raphael Harry [00:09:05]:

A Kenny Wong for every oh, man. So your last name do you know the meaning of your last name?

Kenny Wong [00:09:20]:

Yellow.

Raphael Harry [00:09:21]:

Oh, yeah. That was easy but unexpected.

Kenny Wong [00:09:26]:

Yeah, that's pretty much it. There are two Wongs. One is yellow and one is king. I got yellow. That's my family name.

Raphael Harry [00:09:35]:

Okay. Wow. Is there a story behind it?

Kenny Wong [00:09:41]:

No, there's no real story. I don't think I've ever been curious.

Raphael Harry [00:09:46]:

Like a house of yellow or yellow house.

Kenny Wong [00:09:50]:

No, just the character yellow. There's only one famous Chinese folk hero in China that has that last name. And sometimes I wonder, am I somewhat related to him in our DNA or lineage? His name was Wong Feihong. Jet Li plays him. Jackie Chan plays him in movies. He was like a famous martial artist with an acupuncture business, but he was a really well-known folk hero.

Raphael Harry [00:10:23]:

Trying to recall if I've seen any of Jet Li or Jackie Chan movies.

Kenny Wong [00:10:30]:

Well, drunken master one and two, he plays that character. One Wang FEI Hong for Jackie Chan.

Raphael Harry [00:10:35]:

Jackie Chan. Okay. Yeah.

Kenny Wong [00:10:37]:

And then Jet Li plays him in Once Upon a Time in China. One, two, three, and I believe six.

Raphael Harry [00:10:46]:

Wow, that got up to six.

Kenny Wong [00:10:48]:

Yeah. Four and five were played by Vincent Zhao, another martial arts actor. Yeah.

Raphael Harry [00:10:55]:

Wow.

Kenny Wong [00:10:57]:

He's out there.

Raphael Harry [00:10:58]:

Yeah. Wow. Maybe there was a period in my life where the martial arts, the kung fu movies from Hong Kong ruled the world. Like Bollywood was Fridays, but you could just get the kung fu movies on State. Then we only had two TV stations in most cities in Nigeria, and it was state and federal TV. And some days it was just kung fu and oh, that you just got the boys trying to make all the moves. That's how Jackie Chan came into our lives. And later, Jet Lee. That's how I got to see some of those movies. And they down and, of course, pirated copies on the streets. So my memory is now reverting back then, some of those movies. Yeah, I remember seeing some of them on TV.

Kenny Wong [00:12:08]:

It's funny because I grew up watching Bruce Lee as a little kid, but it never really registered to me how crazy that is. And then later on, because I'm born here, I watch mostly, like, whatever's on American TV. And I started watching stuff on Saturdays or Sundays on Channel Five for, like, Kung Fu Theater and stuff like that. So I used to watch that. But again, never really thought much about it. It's just something that I grew up with. And then I start seeing American action heroes. And by the time I was a teenager because I didn't hang out with many Chinese people growing up until maybe around junior high school to high school, being around Chinese people more often and being more exposed to my culture. Then I started watching martial arts movies through them because I'm so used to Schwarzenegger, Stallone, Van Damme, Seagal, and all those. And then to someone shows me a Jet Li movie, I'm like, what is like, why do they move differently? And it just hit me differently. And then I started going down that rabbit hole because I was a late bloomer, and it's so unesian of me to discover so late. And then I was like, who are these people? They're so cool. And that also motivated me to like, I want to learn martial arts. I want to do what they're doing. And I started teaching myself how to do martial arts because I didn't have enough money to go to school. My parents were into me wanting to learn that stuff, but I got picked on a lot growing up. So they were entertaining the idea of, like, maybe he should learn just to defend himself because he's always getting picked on. But I ended up scrounging, like, a few dollars. And then I went to a store and bought a book by James Liu, and I taught myself how to do the splits and kick.

Raphael Harry [00:14:15]:

Wow.

Kenny Wong [00:14:16]:

And then when I had a job, I used some of that money because I discovered a wushu teacher in Boston who happened to be Donnie Yen's mom.

Raphael Harry [00:14:31]:

Wow.

Kenny Wong [00:14:31]:

And so I took my earnings and took a bus out to Boston to learn with Sifu Bosen Mark, to do know martial arts and learn the form. And she would be impressed that I already started teaching myself, all this stuff. And she corrected my form, she corrected my techniques, and then I started going to all these different teachers and learning and getting better at it. So that stuff just ended up making me into a stunt guy.

Raphael Harry [00:15:06]:

Okay, hold on, we'll come back to that because that's jumping ahead a little bit. But that was good stuff there. That was good stuff. So coming back to childhood, because we kind of skipped ahead, introduce us to your place of birth. And you've answered some of this, but we're sticking to the very early days. So can you introduce your place of birth and what was your childhood like?

Kenny Wong [00:15:41]:

Childhood? I was born in Brooklyn, and according to my parents, we were living in Windsor Terrace before we moved down to I think it's Kensington. It's like Church Avenue. I don't really know what that neighborhood is called now, but then after that, we moved to Bensonhurst, where I lived most of my life. So, yeah, like I was saying earlier, early in my childhood, it was maybe one or two Chinese kids. And by the time I reached junior high school, I started to see an influx of more Chinese kids, and I started getting more integrated into that. As far as what my other childhood was like, it's just me growing up, drawing all the time. I would pick up computer paper, the one with the stripes, the blue and white stripe computer paper, and I would just draw. And I remember drawing a lot of trucks, which I don't like to draw now, but my parents used to remember saying, like, oh, you used to love drawing trucks all the time, everything.

Raphael Harry [00:16:51]:

Why do you think that was that?

Kenny Wong [00:16:53]:

I have no idea. I don't even remember any of that. And then I also know, like any kid in that era, there was Star Wars on TV, you see all these ads and you see Darth Vader. And I was like, oh, that's so cool. And I started just drawing stuff from looking at all these newspaper clippings or magazines of Darth Vader Stormtroopers. So I was into all that was, I guess you could say I was very introverted because I didn't go out very you know, I'm in the Chinese family, they don't really let you go.

Raphael Harry [00:17:32]:

Yeah.

Kenny Wong [00:17:34]:

So I spent a lot of time drawing and looking at TV, watching cartoons. And my mom actually had stacks of comics that I discovered, and I would just flip through now, she had Richie Rich, Casper the Friendly Ghost Archie, and surprisingly, she had stuff like Ghost Rider, Legion of Superheroes.

Raphael Harry [00:17:58]:

I wasn't expecting that. Yeah.

Kenny Wong [00:18:02]:

I was just, like, looking at it, and it's like, oh, what's this? And then I bought my actual first comic when I was with my dad. One day we went to the store around our house when we were living on Church Avenue, and there was a corner store, and we walked in. So he probably was buying cigarettes, I think. And I saw the newsstand, and I saw all the comics on the newsstand, and I picked one up, and it was a detective comic Batman with him coming out of an exploding batplane. And it was drawn by Gene Colon. And I remember looking at it, and I wanted it. He bought it for me, and I just flipped through it obsessively, and got me to want to draw again. And so I was, like, copying the way he draws hands and the way he drew the gestures of the body. I was very fascinated by it. And that became an obsession for me even more. And I just kept drawing and drawing and drawing. And I think comics became a regular thing for me throughout the years because I kept collecting more comics, discovering more artists. John Buscema, John Byrne, Al Williamson. All these artists. And that's kind of how I spent my childhood comics enjoying. Comics, enjoying. And I guess I wanted to be a comic artist until I went to college. I went to the School of Visual Arts, and I remember taking the basic foundation course. In the beginning, I was on probation because I didn't have good academics. I'm a bad agent because I was not an A-list student. In high school, I spent, unfortunately, a good chunk of time not being in school.

Raphael Harry [00:19:57]:

The teenage years.

Kenny Wong [00:19:59]:

Oh, yeah, the rebellious years. But my thing was, I kind of came to a point at the end of that phase where I realized, like, hey, maybe this is a bad idea. I don't think I should be doing this anymore. And none of the kids I was hanging out with felt like it was going to take me somewhere good in my future. And I decided to just walk away from it. I went back to school and went to the dean's office, and I said, hey, I know I messed up, but can I just go back to school and just finish it? And I'll try to do better. And he was like, well, that's really good that you're doing that, but you've been left back twice, so there's no way you're staying longer, so we're going to make you go take your GED. So I took the GED, put a portfolio together of all my drawings, and I submitted it to, like, Fit Pratt School of Visual Arts. Parsons, they got into SVA off my portfolio, but I was on probation since I had bad academic records. But I think that wasn't a very successful stint. Because I barely lasted that half a semester and I gave up. It was too expensive. It was a lot of work, and financially, I couldn't support myself. I had a job, but I couldn't do a full-time job and full-time school. And I had to make the decision of do I stay in school and rack up debt or do I just quit school, stick to the job and pay off whatever I've taken from student loans and things like that.

Raphael Harry [00:21:48]:

So what was the job that you were doing?

Kenny Wong [00:21:50]:

I worked for a stock photography company at the time. It was called Liaison, which was later brought out by Getty Images. So I worked for the library archive, taking stock photography and just putting the slides of 35-millimeter slides back into the archive. So I dealt with that.

Raphael Harry [00:22:12]:

But you weren't taking actual photos yourself?

Kenny Wong [00:22:15]:

No, I did play with photography in high school right before I went to college because I had a friend that I was hanging out with. She went to another school and I would hang out with her. And then I ended up cutting school to go to her school. And I went to one of her dark room sessions. And I was seeing everyone doing photography and developing film, and that kind of segued into me being interested in photography. And then when I went to the School of Visual Arts, I remember in the first semester, I had photography as a basic course, too, and I got to play around with the Dark Room myself. So that also started this obsession with photography. Because actually, photography also came from me being interested in one photographer growing up who took pictures of, like, Depeche Mode and you two, Anton Corbin. He took these really gorgeous, stark black-and-white pictures, and I'm obsessed with black-and-white pictures.

Raphael Harry [00:23:24]:

So it started pretty long time ago, right from the early days.

Kenny Wong [00:23:30]:

Oh, yeah. I was interested in so many things, and I don't know if it's weird or not, but as a teenager reading comics and then being into music and photography, usually a lot of the other kids who are also into comics would be reading Batman, Superman, and Spider-Man. But it wasn't just about the characters for me. But I was more obsessed with the artists that drew them and every artist that drew these characters if they had a different rendition of it. I was very attracted to this style or that style. But then I was very into the non-comic booky styles like Bill Senkevich, John J. Mew, Kent Williams, George Pratt, and Dave McKean because they were drawing painterly type images, not the typical superhero style comics that we see. And I was very into that. And I started trying to draw differently at that time. So there were a lot of things that were influencing me as a teenager drawing. I was into that type of stuff. I was into photography then. I was also watching a lot of John Wu movies and I was drawing a lot of gangster comics.

Raphael Harry [00:24:53]:

Wow. Okay, so I'm still going to take you. Probably this question will be it's going to be an interesting one for you because hearing all the stuff you just talked about now, I'm interested to see the answer that you give me.

Kenny Wong [00:25:12]:

Okay.

Raphael Harry [00:25:13]:

So with all that you've said, what do you consider your favorite childhood memory to be as of right now?

Kenny Wong [00:25:26]:

Favorite childhood memory? I don't know if I have any favorite childhood memories because I was like a young kid, confused, and I was in trouble a lot.

Raphael Harry [00:25:39]:

I think you got something in there that you can from what I've heard right now, there's a lot of juice.

Kenny Wong [00:25:49]:

Oh, yeah. I would say if I had to generalize a good memory, it would probably be like the drawing part. Because as a teenager, you're going through this whole popularity contest in school with other kids and me not being a very popular kid, I didn't hang out with all the cool kids. I was hanging out by myself or I had a handful of friends and I discovered all the alternative kids and I hung out with them. So those were probably those moments where I probably would say, those are my good memories, because I got to explore myself in terms of the art part, because art for me was an escape when I look at it now. Because when you go through that kind of experience, you basically escape into what it is you invest your time into. And for me was art, comics, music, photography. And had I not invested my focus on that, I don't know what else I would be into, because those were, to me, the most interesting times because I feel like I'm developing myself in these moments and I didn't even know about it.

Raphael Harry [00:27:14]:

Yeah, I would have been surprised if it was something else because I knew it was going to be something related to that because yeah, it's beautiful just hearing you talk about the drawings and your relationship to the black and white. I know I was probably around between the ages of four and six when I first held a comic book. And I think like most kids, the color was what I gravitated towards. And it will be probably my adult years that I even realized that I never took note of who wrote the book or who did the drawings, but I just knew that I was the person who gravitated more towards the stories than the drawings. Even though I used to like drawing as a kid. But back then, whenever I knew that drawing could be a career path because that's something that we have in common, is that you're supposed to become a doctor, engineer, banker, that type of career path. You start getting it from a young because I've told the story on the podcast before or when after I found my elder brother. He's like way older than I am, so he used to record Olympics on VHS and cassettes, and I found a bunch of them and I started watching a bunch of Olympic tapes and I was like, oh, I love sprints. And I started dreaming of I might become a sprinter. And my older sibling asked me, so what would you like to be when you grew up? I was like, nine. And I said I would like to be 100 meters. I think I run 100 meters or maybe 200 meters, or maybe I might try 400 meters, but I think 100 meters. I think I set a world record, the fastest man in the world, blah, blah. I was just running my mouth as a nine-year-old. And I go out to play and I get back home and the whole family is like seated and waiting for me and they're like, so what did you say you want to be again when you grew up? I was like, oh, yeah. So as I was saying, I'm going to be 100 meters champion. I'll just try to run my mouth. And that's how I began. Each person starts talking. Do you know that it's only dropouts that take part in athletics and blah, blah, blah, blah? They just that, why can't you be an engineer? Are you so dumb? And I'm like, what? Do you mean? They are not intelligent people. And yeah, that was destroyed for me. And it's not like I'm claiming to be the fastest person, but it was so downgrading for me. So you can imagine. I still have the memory of I think I was about twelve in class. And the art teacher told us, that was one of the last arts teachers that I ever had in school. And they told us, everybody goes outside, grab a plant, bring that, whichever plant you grab, or a flower, bring it in and draw whatever you grabbed outside. And I came out first in class and I got a lot of haters that day. I still remember getting haters for that. I couldn't understand why, but I think it was a yellow flower, but I don't remember the color. But I drew mine and I ended up being first. It felt good to come out first. And I was like, wow, I could do this. But it still ended up becoming people who can't get a career from that. Like, how are you going to be telling a kid that? Why is that the first place your mind went to? So with time, I stopped absorbing that kind of message, like, yeah, what can you gain from drawing? So I started becoming that person who wanted to become a banker. Even the soccer that I used to love because I'm one of the cool kids too. But I knew a lot about current affairs. Soccer, those are my strength. So people will come to me to come ask about that so that's where I could own you, because I knew all those information. And even on knowing information and stuff like that, I was like, what do you do with that? You start thinking, I want to become a banker, but I don't want to work in a bank. I always love when people found their passion, people found something that worked for them outside of and I'm not saying it's bad if you work in those places or those careers, but I have young people who listen to this podcast, and they are finding their creative strengths now. And I'm telling them, like, yeah, some of them reach out to me, and I understand what's going on in their families. And I always let them know, Part of why I do this is to let you guys know that you have options. You don't have to go through the same mistakes that I went through. And some of them are my family members, and I get it. But also, I'm able to admit the mistakes that I made. And I'm happy to have guests like yourself who show you that, yeah, look, there's something out there. We're not telling you that you're going to make $1 million just because you're doing this right now. But there's something that you can do that you have peace in your heart. You'll be happy doing it, and it's your creative there are so many creative options out there. So I'm always happy to see someone who they were following the path from a young there were challenges and all that, and there will always be challenges, and I just love giving that choice, that option out there, throwing it out there to people.

Kenny Wong [00:33:05]:

Well, I did go through those challenges, too, because I'm from an Asian family. And it's funny because a young artist at one of these drawing events came up to me about it. She's like, oh, my parents want me to do this, but I really want to draw. How do I make this work for me? And for me, I was like, I know what she went through, because growing up, my mom was cool with it, and technically, she was kind of an artist because she had drawings, too. I kind of got it from her. But I know relatives were not into it. They're like, you should be studying. To be a lawyer. To be a doctor. And even at some point, they got fed up because I was doing so badly in school, they took my comics and threw them all out.

Raphael Harry [00:33:54]:

Yeah, I know those stories, but that.

Kenny Wong [00:33:58]:

Only upset and angered me to rebel even more and defy what they wanted from me. But the funny thing is, I feel like it comes full circle because now as I'm older and I'm actually drawing as what I kind of originally wanted, I realized doing my other job, if I didn't have this other job, I would not have that creative freedom to just. Do what I want and be happy with it. And also at the other end of it, there's also like a side, I guess you could say, the business end of it, that all those basic tools that you were being taught came in handy because you sign contracts. You have to negotiate. You got to talk to people. You got to learn to like, you saw me at the comic convention. I got to be social. I got to talk to people. I got to sell myself. And all these little things actually do help you to become a successful artist.

Raphael Harry [00:35:08]:

True.

Kenny Wong [00:35:09]:

To get yourself out there. So I was telling this kid, whatever your parents are telling you to do, you know what, just go with it. You never know that later on you might be able to use that education to further what you want to actually do, which is the art, because it actually helps.

Raphael Harry [00:35:29]:

It helps.

Kenny Wong [00:35:32]:

And depending on which percentage you are, not every artist is going to make money right out of the gate. You're going to be struggling for a long time. But if you have a normal job and then you come to a certain point where you're comfortable, you are financially stable, and you decide this is where you finally can focus your energy on, you will actually find more freedom in doing what you like rather than let it lock you down and do things you don't like.

Raphael Harry [00:36:03]:

Yeah, when people bring those types of questions or ask for help, I always say I agree that I don't say, throw away the baby with bath water. The only pushback I give is that instead of just beating it into the kids, this is the only way. It's not the only way. The language we use, we can tell the kids, like, look, I know you want to pursue this part, and I will encourage you to pursue the part. However, you need a stable ground because like you said, you rebelled sometimes. I know someone whose comics were destroyed completely, and he had a great collection of comics, and he never recovered from that. He's successful in the field he is in today, but something died in him. Yeah, he's making money, but something died in him. And the family can't place it. But those who know him, if you are a true friend, you know that something died in him after they did that to him because they were trying to send him a message like, you must go to school and become an engineer. And he is okay. So he went to school and became an engineer because he couldn't rebel. He wasn't that type of person. But something just died in him and he never recovered. He just, okay, I follow. And sometimes people, it's like some parents miss that. And I worry about those people because it's like, okay, I'm making the money. He's just a walking shell. And I'm like, what happens to those people? So how about we use a different language with the times we change? And it's okay to change with times and say, yes, I hear you, you want to do this thing. But we worry about parents have to worry. We want you to succeed. So how about you have some safety net? Because we can't be covering all your bills and your expenses in the future. That's the only thing I ask for the parents and the guardians to do and support the younger ones. Otherwise, you're going to have rebellions or you have some being empty shells. And it's very sad. It hurts when I see that type of creativity. And then the one that I hate the most is like, that also happened to me after the stuff that happened to me when I was like age nine. And then fast forward when I'm 18 and I'm doing dishes. One day I have this radio next. I always had the radio next to me as I was always getting information. And sports radio is on and they are talking about how much soccer players have been paid. And then it was about 90,000 pounds. Yeah, 90,000 British pounds for the highest-paid player in the world. And one of the family members just happened to be in the kitchen, and she was like, they pay somebody that I thought you used to play. I thought you had wanted to be a soccer player. That was like nine years ago. So you can't kick a ball now. I haven't played for like six, seven years. That skill. I'm not going to be competing with people who've been playing for longer. Go kick a ball. They are paying somebody good money like that. You don't remember that day, what you said to me, how you made me not touch? How was I going to be playing sports? You told me to go focus on the book, and I never said that because you all made me stop going out if you caught me with a ball, I got bit. So now it's like, oh, but somebody is making millions. Why can't you make millions? And then it now turns to another degrading comment of the person, which is now killing the person's self-confidence. I thought I was trying to do good here and then now, oh, you're not even going to make millions. That's why I always have a pushback, like, just let people find their part and support them. Docue people's creativity.

Kenny Wong [00:40:27]:

I think if anything, it just enforced this whole thing in my mind. Whereas I drew, but I wanted to do what I wanted to do, and it kind of led into my approach of whenever I draw, like, I'm going to draw, but I'm going to draw because I want to, and I want to be really good at it, and I want to be good for myself. I don't care about what other people think. I just want to be as good as I can be. I'm not trying to be famous or anything or be a millionaire realistically. I just want to be really good at what I do. And I realize by being good at what you do that other stuff kind of comes naturally on its own. But it just depends on how hard you work at it. But I definitely feel like I've done my time having a normal job too. So I know what it's like. I've worked in an office, I've worked in a restaurant, I've worked as a stockboy in all these different jobs. So I've done all that experience and I realized in my head it's good because I'm making some money to make myself float and to be able to eat, to buy some clothes. But I realized that's not where I want. I want to do this. It helped push me harder to really work harder.

Raphael Harry [00:42:05]:

Hi everyone. If you're new to the podcast or a returning listener and you enjoy what we are doing here, did you know that you could enjoy more of our content and also support our work via Patreon? For as little as $3 per month, you get access to loads of bonus content that you'll find nowhere and be the first to latest news. Don't miss out. Go to Patreon.com Whitelabelamericanpod or just search for White Label American podcast on Patreon. P-A-T-R-E-O-N. So which did you do first? Was it a stuntman? How does one even become a stunt person? Like, how does one become a professional stunt person?

Kenny Wong [00:42:55]:

Okay, so I ended up being a stunt person only by accident. It wasn't something that I thought was an actual job because I was into the movies and I was doing martial arts and I thought at some point like, yeah, maybe when I'm okay enough, maybe I can teach martial arts and be a teacher in someone's school or something, right? And I remember also, I was also doing gymnastics in 86 in Amsterdam at this church. It was like this big loft. That's actually one of my favorite memories too, because I have a lot of long-standing friends that I've been training and hanging out with in those days in my twenties. And I remember training at the gym, doing gymnastics, and one of the other people there was like, hey, you ever thought about doing stunts? And I said, what's that? And they're like, you watch Jackie Chan and Jet Li and they fight in these movies and then you see the guys fall all over the place. I was like, oh, okay. That's what it's called. And so yeah, if you're interested in being a stunt, there's a guy that is looking for a Chinese stunt guy and I think you fit that. I was like, okay. And he's like and she told me he's worked with Samo Hung and Jet Li on a movie. I was, you know and she gave me the number I reached out to him. And I bothered him because just the thought, like, he worked with Samo. He worked with Jet Li. Maybe he could show me something. I wasn't thinking about the job. I was, like, thinking, like, what can I ask him to make me better? And I pestered him, and finally, he's like, okay, we're meeting at this place in downtown Brooklyn and just show up. We're going to audition. I was like, okay. And I went in, and there's a couple of other guys there that I knew, too, from the training. They were all there. And his name is Roberto Lopez, who I'm still friends with and is one of my first mentors. And he just basically had us do this routine of warming up. All right, guys, just do some basic martial art movements and some basic acrobatic movements down the floor. So I was doing those, and finally, he's like, all right, he set this whole thing up with mats, and he stacked these mats, these fold mats up like it's a table. And he's, like, asking everybody, all right, so I want you to jump on the mats like it's a table, and I want you to do a back three-quarter. Back three quarter, almost like a back flip, but you're stopping your momentum in midair and you're landing on your chest.

Raphael Harry [00:45:35]:

Okay, I could picture that.

Kenny Wong [00:45:38]:

So I did that. And then he had me do it a number of times, like, boom, boom, boom, boom. Do it a bunch of times repeatedly. He's like, okay, good. And then he's like, can you add a half a turn and fall on your back? So I did the back three-quarter half turn to my back. Oh, good. Do it again. Over and over and over he goes. Can you do a back three-quarter half turn to your back? But land like this is the table. Land with only this part of your shoulder on the edge of this and let it roll you this way. Okay. I never tried it, but let's see. I did it, and he goes, okay, good. Do it again. Do it, like, a bunch of times. And I kept doing it again and again, and then he goes, okay. And then he hired me for my first job, and that's how I got into the.

Raphael Harry [00:46:30]:

Is. Wow. Wait, and the Oscars don't recognize stunt walk, right?

Kenny Wong [00:46:36]:

Not that I know of.

Raphael Harry [00:46:39]:

Right there. Just that alone, I'm like, yeah, because I'm feeling the pain already. My shoulder is hurting.

Kenny Wong [00:46:54]:

I don't really think about it. For me, I think similar to the Chinese guys, where I got a chance to work with them, and I kind of developed the Asian mentality of like, oh, I'm a stunt guy. This is my job. So I stay quiet, and I'm silent in the shadows and, oh, whenever you get a job, just make sure you don't see your face. Wow.

Raphael Harry [00:47:20]:

So who's the most popular start you've worked with? You can tell us. Not a future project that you can't say, but what was the biggest celebrity that you've worked with in the movie?

Kenny Wong [00:47:39]:

I don't know what everybody defines.

Raphael Harry [00:47:41]:

The biggest difference to you. To you. Who's your favorite? Okay, let me say your favorite. You can name what I want.

Kenny Wong [00:47:49]:

It's weird because my definition of my favorite moments is a stunt. I got to meet the Taiwanese and the Hong Kong stunt team when I did a job in Ohio for the RZA from.

Raphael Harry [00:48:08]:

Yeah, yeah.

Kenny Wong [00:48:09]:

He was shooting something that would have pretty much been what the man with the Iron Fist ended up being. But we shot the early version of it before he made that movie. And I went out to Ohio with the stunt team and they were telling me, oh, yeah, Hong Kong and the Taiwanese stunt team are here. So the choreographers from Five Deadly Venoms. And then there's Tony Lung from the Hong Kong Stuntman Association. So I got to be on the set and watch the Hong Kong guys and the Taiwanese guys. But it was with the Taiwanese guys that I was closer to because we were together most of the time. And I got a really good close experience with the coordinator because I saw him think of shots, think of choreography, how he directed, how he edits in his head. And it's kind of like how it's helped me envision things now in my head where if I read something, it's like, oh, yeah, I can see in my head like, oh yeah, I'm going to draw like this. Or I can photograph something like this and edit this because everything's all here before I even start it. That was one of the most memorable moments for me in terms of being a stunt in my career. And another was like, I guess you could say, working on Dark Knight Rises. I wasn't really doing a whole lot, but I got to just be on that set. I got to see the director with the IMAX cameras because I'm so into photography and cinematography and I got to see the IMAX cameras and the film, the big boxes of film. And I'm watching how he directs and it's kind of almost similar to the way the Chinese where he pretty much knows what he wants and then they set the camera there and then they go. So that was really good to see because I'm kind of very old-fashioned. I like film. That was a highlight.

Raphael Harry [00:50:17]:

I would say.

Kenny Wong [00:50:18]:

Yeah, those were the ones that are the most memorable for me.

Raphael Harry [00:50:25]:

I wasn't expecting Nolan's style to be similar to the Taiwanese way because a lot of times it just reminded me of Star Wars getting a lot of it, like copying a lot of what's the director's name of what's that Japanese movie?

Kenny Wong [00:50:47]:

Kurosawa.

Raphael Harry [00:50:48]:

Kurosawa, yeah, that's what just came to my mind, like, oh, you know what? I shouldn't be surprised, but it's like.

Kenny Wong [00:50:53]:

I work with a Japanese crew, too, on a Japanese movie and a TV show, and they're similar to how the Chinese where they're very precise, they're very quick. They know what they want.

Raphael Harry [00:51:03]:

Okay.

Kenny Wong [00:51:04]:

They have such speed in getting all the things they want and moving on. Whereas my experience working on more Americanized movies is they usually do the master, and then they go in with specials or other specialized shots where they just pick up things that they missed on the master. Which, for me, is a different approach. But it's also, like, very how do I say this?

Raphael Harry [00:51:38]:

Is it too technology-heavy?

Kenny Wong [00:51:41]:

It's like you kind of figure it out as you go along rather than knowing what you want.

Raphael Harry [00:51:46]:

Okay.

Kenny Wong [00:51:47]:

Because then when you get all this coverage, then you go to the editing bay. If the editor is looking at all this footage, if he's not familiar with it and he has to do it with the editor, he's going to not know exactly how to pick the best shots, I guess. And I'm not trying to say they don't know their job, but just when you have so much stuff, how do you tell what's best? Whereas the Chinese and the Japanese, they were just like, I'm going to shoot this here. Cut. I'm going to put the camera here. We'll do this.

Raphael Harry [00:52:22]:

Cut.

Kenny Wong [00:52:22]:

Then we reverse back again. Cut. And they just keep moving. Wow, they're fast.

Raphael Harry [00:52:29]:

That's great to know. That's beautiful. That's beautiful.

Kenny Wong [00:52:33]:

Yeah.

Raphael Harry [00:52:35]:

Those are things that someone like me, who's just the guy who means I enjoy movies from that part of the mean. South Korea is my thing right now. Have you worked on any Korean production?

Kenny Wong [00:52:50]:

I have not, but I actually shot either. I'm trying to remember. I did go to some sort of, like, production scout for one small project where the cinematographer was the guy who did oh, boy.

Raphael Harry [00:53:10]:

Oh, man. That's my all-time favorite.

Kenny Wong [00:53:17]:

That's the closest I've ever worked with a Korean.

Raphael Harry [00:53:23]:

Was it a similar style of approach?

Kenny Wong [00:53:27]:

I actually don't remember because I don't think I've worked on it. I was only there for the talk of the preparation of it.

Raphael Harry [00:53:36]:

Okay.

Kenny Wong [00:53:36]:

But I don't remember if I worked on it. It's been that long.

Raphael Harry [00:53:40]:

All right. I was just curious to know if it was the approach, because yeah, Korean movies right now, I think Old Boy was what started it. That was, like, the very first Korean movie I ever saw. Somebody gave it to me while I was I think I was stationed in I just got back from Bahrain, but somebody had given it to me as a gift while I was leaving Bahrain. And I watched it one night. I couldn't sleep. I had insomnia, and I was like, what is this? They got stuff like this in Korea. What? My life was never the same after that. Yeah. But yeah. Respect to great filmmakers around the world shout out to them the likes of Tom Cruise. And I don't know if Jackie Chan still does his stunts, too. I don't know. He's up there in age know? Tom Cruise loves doing his stunts. How do stunt professionals look at actors like that? Do they feel like these guys are taking their job away or making life too easy for the.

Kenny Wong [00:55:05]:

Don't? I've never worked with Tom Cruise before, so I wouldn't know what they would think. But I don't think anyone would feel like their jobs are taken away. I mean, there's still going to be a stunt coordinator. You need stunt people. He will have a stunt double regardless as you know, and I'm sure, you know, if he's insisting on doing it, and there's actors that insist on like, oh, yeah, I can do that. And you gotta give them the room to let them do it. And they can only do it to a certain point, know, unless you're Tom Cruise, the insurance company or some production would be, no, don't let them do that, it's too dangerous. And then you have to give them double the position to do the more dangerous thing. But in Tom Cruise's case, I guess if he's the producer or something, I'm sure he'd be like, no, I'm going to do it. But I don't think anyone's really losing a lot of work.

Raphael Harry [00:55:58]:

Yeah, I just had to ask that. It's a basic question, but yeah, I'm a big fan of his, but I'm like, dude, how old are you, man? Are you still running? His running is just that's like mine.

Kenny Wong [00:56:11]:

Good Jackie Chan, too. He still does his stunts, as far as I know. Yeah, I think so. But he's still older now. I'm sure he's still looking at him.

Raphael Harry [00:56:23]:

Like, what was that? Was it God's Project A yeah, I still look at him, I'm like then I have to remind myself, like, man, he's not that young anymore, man, come on, step out of it.

Kenny Wong [00:56:37]:

There's only so much you can do before you start.

Raphael Harry [00:56:42]:

Those movies. Back then, I was like, man, this guy was like because I think he was one of the people who made us as kids, snap out of it because we try to mimic everything he was doing. And then seeing the guy fall from Project A where he was.

Kenny Wong [00:56:57]:

Falling in the clock tower.

Raphael Harry [00:56:59]:

The clock tower. There was one of his movies where he fell off the cliff and into the trees.

Kenny Wong [00:57:04]:

Oh, that's the Armor of God.

Raphael Harry [00:57:06]:

Armor of yes, yes, I'm off. And so who gonna do it? Nah, nah, we're gonna listen to our parents on this.

Kenny Wong [00:57:19]:

When I worked in Ohio with the Taiwanese stunt team, toward the very end of the job, I remember working the Taiwanese stunt team and the coordinator, Robert Tai, he was choreographing and directing this scene with RZA where he's on a wet barn. It was raining heavily that night. And then he had all the Taiwanese stunt team dressed up as ninjas while RZA's sitting on the big stack of hay and he's doing these fight scenes. And then the Taiwanese stunt guys were fighting him in the ninja uniforms and at some point he has to pop up and he flips and he's supposed to land on the floor. And I remember very clearly when he flips and he lands, and because the floor was slippery and muddy, he slips, puts his hand out, and then next thing you know, the elbow pop and you see the bone sticking out here. And we were, oh, and then they don't leave me alone. I'll take care of this. And he picked up his own stunt guy, and he was like, taking him by the arm and just inspecting it, and the guy was like and he just like, kaka. Okay, go back to work. I looked at that, and I was like, wow. And it reminds me of all the times I've ever gotten injured. And I went to Chinatown, to the bone setters, and they did the same thing where they're like but when I saw him a week later, they came to Brooklyn to hang out, and I saw him, he was fine. And it was just his elbows all purple and black and bruised up, but he was fine.

Raphael Harry [00:59:05]:

Yeah. I need you to give me one of those bone setups.

Kenny Wong [00:59:11]:

I don't think they exist anymore, because of gentrification, that was the old times, man. Because they're not around anymore, man. Or if someone knows about it, I would like to know.

Raphael Harry [00:59:22]:

Yeah, please, anyone listening, if you know any one of them, please send them away. Hit me up, hit me up, hit me up. Yeah, we used to have people like that in my tribe back home, because we're known for massages, and some elderly people, they just got away of I've known of soccer players who got hurt badly, and it's like, we got to take you for surgery. Like, no, take me to this village. They got somebody there. What? They're good with bones. And so I found out some elderly person, and it's like, who took away from that person? Nobody got trained.

Kenny Wong [00:59:58]:

Oh, no, actually, I have another good one for you. But this one happened to me. So when I was doing the gymnastics, when we had those soft, cushy matte floors, I was trying to do like a front sweep kick, right? And I had no socks on. I'm probably what, in my early twenties, I decided to be an idiot and just try it on this floor, not realizing like, oh, that's a bad idea. So I did the front sweep kick, but you have to crouch really low when you do it, right? So as I do it, I put so much effort into that sweep that when I spun around, I heard Kalaka Yikes. And then I was like, something happened. I have my looking down and I see my foot. And let's say this is my foot, right? My big toe is missing.

Raphael Harry [01:00:51]:

Yikes.

Kenny Wong [01:00:52]:

And then I was like, where's my big toe? And I looked around. I'm looking at my teachers. They're all busy. They're all teaching the other students. And I was like, I don't want to say anything. I don't want to get in trouble. I sat down in the corner. I picked up my foot, and my big toe was underneath right here. It was turned all the way around, and it bent all the way back underneath at the bottom of my foot. I'm looking around, it's like, don't know if it's a good idea. I took the big toe.

Raphael Harry [01:01:29]:

And then.

Kenny Wong [01:01:30]:

I saw I was like, oh, not bad. It's moving. Okay, I'm going to go train. I went back to training. Within a few minutes, I'm like, oh, my God. Maybe I shouldn't train. It's starting to hurt. I don't know if I did something bad with it. I kept training, but then I kind of took it easy and went home. And the following day I wake up and I felt throbbing pain. I look and my toe got swollen like this. And I couldn't even put my shoes on. And I remember going to work with no shoes because I couldn't fit it in. And my boss at the time at Getty Images was like, why did you come to work? What's wrong with your foot? I was like, go see a doctor. Okay, sorry.

Raphael Harry [01:02:21]:

That sounds like an Elliot 20s. Yeah.

Kenny Wong [01:02:26]:

And the funny thing is the doctor was like when I saw the doctor, he's like inspecting it. And then he looks at me, he's like, you are so lucky. You didn't break anything. Everything's fine. If you're just swollen and hyperextended.

Raphael Harry [01:02:46]:

Oh, man. Oh, man. That's oh, bro. Yeah.

Kenny Wong [01:02:59]:

You didn't expect that kind of interview, right?

Raphael Harry [01:03:01]:

No, but that's good. In my next life, I'll try that. I'm too old for that now I'm like, what's his name? Was it Danny Glover in Lethal Weapon?

Kenny Wong [01:03:15]:

Too old for the shit.

Raphael Harry [01:03:16]:

I'm too old for the shit.

Kenny Wong [01:03:19]:

I feel him right now. I actually got invited to his birthday party on a job that I was on that he was in. And then what's funny is it was a Jim John Mush movie that he starred in. And I played a zombie. And I remember going to set one day, and there's this woman with her now, trying to figure out what to do. And I was helping her. And then at some now, I guess she wasn't part of the production. I didn't know then because I was just like, oh, do you need help? What's wrong? He's like, oh, we just trying to get a ride back to our hotel. Where's your hotel? And she's like, oh, it's here. And then I saw the address. I was like, oh, that's not far from me. If you want, I'll drive you there. I drove her back to her hotel. She was really appreciative. And then the next day I saw her, she was like, super friendly. And she goes, hey, by the way, I'm having a dinner party for my nephew, or cousin, was it? I was like, oh, yeah, sure. Yeah, I'll come. He's like, he's on this movie. I was like, oh, yeah. And I was like, who is it? Danny Glover. I was like, oh. So I got invited to this party for Danny Glover and he made a big speech. And he ended up with the speech closing with I'm too old for this shit.

Raphael Harry [01:04:47]:

Yeah, the fourth movie with the Whooping that Jet Lee gave them, that's still my all-time favorite.

Kenny Wong [01:04:54]:

Oh, yeah.

Raphael Harry [01:04:55]:

Oh, man, that movie. I was like, yep. The way that fights ended, that was one of the most believable fights of all time. Because I was like, there's no way you guys could beat this guy. That was one of my favorite bad guys right there. Because I was like, this guy's too good. These two Americans can win this fight. So it's just pure luck. I accept that. I believe. Yes. Yes. That's why amongst my all-time favorites yes, I know Mel Gibson is problematic, all that, but it's my guilty pleasure.

Kenny Wong [01:05:33]:

I remember when it first came out, how excited everybody was.

Raphael Harry [01:05:37]:

I was in Nigeria, so I only got the VHS later on. That was one of the first original VHS that I got, unlike the rest that was pirated. My brother in law, he was coming from South Africa, so he bought it. And I was like, wow, they made it. Fourth movie. I didn't know. So I put it on and I was Jet Lee in An American Movie. Wait, Jet Lee is the bad guy? They made a mistake. It's supposed to be the other way around. Wait, okay. So now how are you going to fight this guy? This guy's good. And when the first whooping, I was.

Kenny Wong [01:06:15]:

The one inside the house.

Raphael Harry [01:06:17]:

I was like, oh, they made a mistake, man. Who made this idea to put this guy I was like at the end, I was like, wait, did it this to go fight him in the end? When they were like, they go take out him. I was like in my head, I'm like, how's this going to go? I know in American movies you're supposed to win. But no, it's not going to happen. And I saw the whooping and the whooping I was like, yeah, I'm actually rooting for Jet Li on this one.

Kenny Wong [01:06:46]:

Yeah, I was rooting for Jet.

Raphael Harry [01:06:49]:

Please kick them. I was like, yes. He's whooping them good. And at the end when I was, okay. Yes, I agree. This is the only way you can win this fight. That's it. Because that was the most believable whooping. That's why any other franchise, any other movie. And it's like, how did you win this fight? Who thought about this? Who wrote this movie? Nah. Wrong. You failed. You lost me there. Because that little weapon for Gibson wasn't I was like, you don't get it back then. This is how you do it. If you go and bring a movie and you want to show me a movie, and you bring a body in the movie and the body is good like this, then he got to whoop you good, beat you real. And he's like, you know what? I'm dying. Whatever is there, I'll use it. I'll cheat.

Kenny Wong [01:07:38]:

Yeah, it's hard. I mean, every time you see if they cast like, a star like jet li as a bad guy, you always wonder, how are you going to make this believable that you can kick his ass? Because I'm sorry. I can't.

Raphael Harry [01:07:50]:

You can't. I gave him the first time. What was the movie he did? Was it no, the one he did with Aliyah?

Kenny Wong [01:07:58]:

Oh, Romeo must die.

Raphael Harry [01:07:59]:

Yeah. I remember when somebody in my neighborhood brought it to my street and was like, he had to do a video CD. Video CDs because we couldn't afford DVDs. I was like, who's the bad guy? Because at first, he had one with DMX.

Kenny Wong [01:08:18]:

That was after that was a cradle to the grave.

Raphael Harry [01:08:21]:

Cradle to the grave. So the guy thought it was cradled to the grave. He got the wrong information. He was like, DMX versus Jet Lee. I said that's stupid, man. DMX, go fight jet lee. No. So he put it on. All the boys came and watched. No, you got the wrong movie, man. But, yeah, we're glad that jet li is good. Okay. I thought DMX and Jet Lee will fight. Why is that the fight? You want to see you go put some pit bulls on Jet Lee, but those are some good times, man. But I always appreciate Lethal Weapon Four. That movie was I was young then, but I started seeing that. Yeah. I think that started my if you bring a bad guy who can whoop the good guys up and beat them good, beat them real good. I was not rooting for the bad guy. Like, yeah, he might be bad, but.

Kenny Wong [01:09:21]:

It was also highlander four where they had Donnie n play one of the Highlanders and he fights the Highlander.

Raphael Harry [01:09:28]:

I never saw that. No.

Kenny Wong [01:09:31]:

Well, we remember that movie. But I remember seeing that scene and I was like, yeah, I'm rooting for Donnie for this.

Raphael Harry [01:09:40]:

Name. Was it the same Highlander, the same?

Kenny Wong [01:09:42]:

The guy who played no, it was another one. I forgot his name. God, I just know. Highlander for the endgame.

Raphael Harry [01:09:54]:

Yeah. Up against Donnie Yenn.

Kenny Wong [01:09:57]:

Yeah. And then when you watch that scene, you're like, yeah, I don't know how.

Raphael Harry [01:10:00]:

You're going to that reminds me of What's the Bruce Lee tetion teddy. Bruce Lee was trying to get it into American movies and TV. And those are the people that are putting on Bruce Lee against dang. That's crazy, man. Yeah, but anyway, let me not get lost in that rabbit hole.

Kenny Wong [01:10:27]:

Oh, yeah. We'll get really lost. We'll never stop.

Raphael Harry [01:10:30]:

Walter won't stop me because he's enjoying it. So one topic that I haven't touched on is music. And I'm pretty sure that you use music a lot. Music. I'm curious to know how music plays a role when it comes to your drawings and even your stunt work. How does music work with the work that you do?

Kenny Wong [01:11:05]:

It plays a big part in everything I do, honestly, because it all started when I was again a teenager. I love music. When I had my first little cassette player, used to always listen to it on my Walkman.

Raphael Harry [01:11:20]:

Yeah. For the young ones who don't know that that's a real thing. Yeah, you might go to the museums now and check it out.

Kenny Wong [01:11:27]:

But music has always been another platform of escape for me aside from drawing. Because then you just put your headphones on and you're just in your own world. But now music sets the tone for me, puts me in the headspace. I'll listen to music when I draw. Music just puts me in that emotional headspace of what I'm doing. So I'll make, like, a little playlist. Like, the one consistent playlist I have is the Wong Karwai playlist that I put together. And it's just music from his movies or inspired by his movies or music that I feel like would fit into something he would do that I've just tossed in there. And I'll play that as I'm drawing because I don't just draw. If I just draw, then I don't feel like I have any motivation or purpose. But when I'm listening to the music, it puts me I don't know if this is the right way to say it. Like you feel a certain way when you hear these sounds and then it just makes you think of things. And then it helps me not only think of things, it puts me in that mood. And then all of a sudden, it just comes out of me.

Raphael Harry [01:12:50]:

Is it like it takes you to a dimension with whatever. It's like you and the Walk that you're working on. You're in a separate dimension away from our dimension, kind of.

Kenny Wong [01:13:03]:

It's more like an emotional dimension, I guess you could say.

Raphael Harry [01:13:06]:

Yeah. Emotional dimension.

Kenny Wong [01:13:08]:

Like emotional context, as Bruce Lee would say.

Raphael Harry [01:13:11]:

Yeah.

Kenny Wong [01:13:12]:

And if I don't have that, it's just harder for me to draw. Just kind of like then it just becomes something you're just doing. But there's no feeling behind it for me because if I don't have that feeling when I'm drawing, then I'm not doing it. I don't feel like doing it. And then how music plays a role in stunts. For me. I don't know if it's just stunted, but just in general, physically. And this is something I've read from Samuel Hung and Jackie Chan and even Bruce Lee, where in an interview they were saying know one of the martial arts actors that they were hiring was watching how they were choreographing. And sometimes they're not doing anything and they're just kind of like, thinking of choreography. And they asked you, how do you come up with this choreography? And what is this thing you're doing when you're tapping your foot on the ground? I'm thinking about music. When you have a rhythm, when you have music and melody coming in, then you think about the fight choreography, and you think about, like and then you kind of think of base your movements around that, which is why when you hear the Chinese guys choreograph, they never go, oh, I'm going to punch here. I'm going to do this, I'm going to do always this is how they talk. They're like, you come here, you do this. You hear Jackie Chan say in interviews, too, when you hear that's, that rhythm, that musicality that they're talking about in the choreography, so it ebbs and flows, and it's just not like, DA DA DA DA DA DA. And that helped with how I do movement, too. So when you're doing moving, you're like, you think about that. And it also helps me when I draw because I'm thinking of flow. I'll listen to very relaxing Chinese or Japanese music which helps me flow when I draw. And I'm trying to extend that into movement when I'm doing a martial art, if I'm doing a punch, if I punch the bag, like the same thing with choreography. You think about that. Yeah. That's how music plays an important part in the stuff that I do.

Raphael Harry [01:15:41]:

So can you give us at least three artists from your playlist that keep you reading?

Kenny Wong [01:15:54]:

Three artists? Well, right now, as I said, I'm listening to a bunch of stuff. Let me see. I will tell you right off the bat. Shigeru Umebayashi and Yomorikon Han Zimmer.

Raphael Harry [01:16:14]:

Okay, yeah, hanzimmer.

Kenny Wong [01:16:18]:

When it comes to just, like, bands and stuff like that, I love Massive Attack.

Raphael Harry [01:16:26]:

Other friends will be proud of that.

Kenny Wong [01:16:27]:

Yeah. So Massive Attack is one of my favorite bands. I listen to that. I listen to soundtrack music a lot of times and then some hip hop or Lo-Fi, depending on what I use.

Raphael Harry [01:16:43]:

Lo-Fi a lot when I'm doing my podcast, doing my creative stuff, too. Sometimes I just put on a Lo-Fi, and then I have a gentleman who makes the music for this podcast. He actually is a shoe. He works for a shoe company. He's now based in Portland, one of the big shoe companies. I don't have his permission to say the company works for now, but on the side, he makes music, does some designing, and puts online and infrared crypto. And his music is very mesmerizing, and it's kind of like the Lo-Fi theme. So, yeah, he has his albums on all platforms, and sometimes I just put on his albums and I'm walking, doing my thing.

Kenny Wong [01:17:36]:

There oh, also, one of the other most listened to artists is he's European? I hope I'm not saying his name wrong. Olafar Arnolds. He's another one that I listen to on a heavy rotation next to the other stuff that I listen to.

Raphael Harry [01:17:54]:

Okay. I'll definitely be checking them out. I always ask everybody for music. That's how I build my ever-growing playlist. And I love collecting music from all over the world.

Kenny Wong [01:18:06]:

Me, too.

Raphael Harry [01:18:10]:

I just love that.

Kenny Wong [01:18:12]:

Oh, in addition, in terms of the martial arts movements, I forgot to mention this, too, because of the whole musicality of the movement, right, in martial arts and choreography. I also had a very good friend of mine who I worked on a music video with. His name is Cricket. And I remember running into him after Nasi for a few years, and he was working at the Forbidden Planet at a comic store, and I was like, we connected with him. And at some point when I thought about the musicality, I knew he was a house dancer. And I asked him, I was like, hey, you do house music? Do you teach dancing? He's like, yeah, I teach dancing on 14th street at this dance studio. And I was like, I want to take dancing classes. So I took dancing classes, and I do house music, and I learned I'm not great or anything, mind you, but I took it for a few years to teach myself to get a rhythm in my body to help me with the martial arts movements.

Raphael Harry [01:19:14]:

So how did that I always felt like people who knew martial arts or danced, if you could dance, learning martial arts could be easy, because, like, it's like the blend of both. And I'm always envious when I see that, like, man, I wish I had an opportunity to go into that. That's so beautiful when you see the movement. So I'm like, yeah, that should be an easy flow. In my mind, that's how I feel like that should be an easy flow. Well, depending on the know, I know my namesake in Florida is from Venezuela. You'll be, no, no, you got to do the Bachata and all that. I'm like, okay, here we go now.

Kenny Wong [01:20:12]:

Yeah, they share very close similarities. Some of the movements, when you watch people move, like either a martial artist or a dancer, it's like, you see the cadence, you see the rhythm, you see them, like, flowing. It's all about flow. And then when you learn about all this stuff, then all of a sudden, you open up so many doors, and you start saying, oh, he's too stiff. There's no rhythm to it, and it's too tense. And then you can see who's the really good one that relaxes, that flows, that knows how to bring the energy when it's needed and then relax a little. Same thing with dance. When I was learning dance from my friend, look at him. He's like, you see how he's not hard. He's feeling the music, and he's going with it, and you see he's taking his time, and he's just enjoying himself. And then when you see the same thing with martial arts, you see these guys who are just doing repetitive, stiff movements as opposed to other martial artists where they're like.

Raphael Harry [01:21:18]:

Because I always think about Bruce Lee's famous saying, be like water.

Kenny Wong [01:21:24]:

Yeah, exactly. I mean, Bruce Lee was a champion cha-cha dancer, too, so it made sense. And that's why I was like, oh, I better learn to dance.

Raphael Harry [01:21:35]:

Yeah. Better learn to dance. I think you might have just given me the inspiration to get back in the game.

Kenny Wong [01:21:44]:

I would never dance in public, though. I go to clubs with them, and I still cannot shake the feeling of, like, no, I don't want to dance in front of anybody.

Raphael Harry [01:21:54]:

Hey, everybody who's on this podcast is considered a dancer. If you say you don't dance, we'll stop recording and kick you out of the studio right now.

Kenny Wong [01:22:01]:

Might as well kick me out now.

Raphael Harry [01:22:02]:

It's too late. We already got you on tape. We already know you dance. It's too late. You can't. Sorry, Cricket.

Kenny Wong [01:22:09]:

I didn't mean to disappoint you.

Raphael Harry [01:22:14]:

So I begin to prepare to wrap up. You are in comic books also. You stick to the black and white with comic books. Right. Were you tempted to go the colored route? Like, change to what's like, for lack of a better phrase, what's more common? And change away from what has been working for you or what you've always talked to?

Kenny Wong [01:22:53]:

Yeah, I mean, I've always wanted to color. Actually, the black and white that I've been doing, especially when I started doing ink wash, was just my way of making myself feel comfortable with a brush because when I do ink wash, you're basically diluting the ink into different values. So dark, medium, light. And I wanted to do watercolor because I saw some artists that were doing incredible watercolor work that inspired me. Like I was telling you earlier, there's John J. Muth. There's this animator, character designer named Manu Arenas, Olivia Quapel. They did these incredible watercolor pieces, but I was never comfortable because I feel like I never got into it. So for me to build my confidence up, I started doing the ink wash to get the idea of it, to make my hand comfortable with it, because there is stuff out there that makes me feel like sometimes I should use some color. And I have been I mean, you see on the sketchbook, I start adding color, but predominantly. Yeah, I work with black and white, but I don't know if you saw my Instagram post, but I've started doing watercolors.

Raphael Harry [01:24:22]:

I must have missed that.

Kenny Wong [01:24:23]:

Well, yeah, I started doing watercolors recently because I thought, okay, I have no more excuses. It's been how many years since I've said this? I got to start doing this and so I'm transitioning to doing watercolors. And I'm not just going to keep myself doing black and white because I know it's very limiting. There's only so much I can do with it. But that's the good thing about art, right? Art is always if you master one thing, there's always something else new to learn, to add to your toolset as an artist. So with art, it's great because I'm just learning one thing at a time. And when I feel like I'm comfortable and I'm good enough, it's time to move on to the next thing. What else can I do? I don't want to be stagnant. I don't want to just draw one way. I'm always constantly evolving and I look at all my influences, and the ones that influence me the most are the ones that I always see get better and better and different, and they grow. And so it makes me influenced to never stop, to always be better. Not like in a competitive way, but just as myself. You can always do better. It's also like martial arts philosophy. Just because you could do this, it doesn't mean you're the greatest fighter. You can always learn more as a person, even if you're not talking about martial arts or art, just the idea, the concept of growing as a person from the moment you're a child to the moment you turn elderly. Think about that span of time in between, what you've accumulated in experience, what you succeeded in, and what you failed in. But all of that comes from trial and error. You make mistakes, but you learn from them and you get better. You become a better person. You handle life better.

Raphael Harry [01:26:34]:

Are you writing the story in your comic book or are you just doing the drawings?

Kenny Wong [01:26:38]:

Only for my personal comic. I wrote the script. I spent a couple of years writing that and developing it. And then again after I edit my own stuff, then I will go in and start drawing it out. And the whole process of seeing that when you draw it out based on what you read in the script, sometimes the visuals kind of come differently from the words. So then I'll go back to the script and kind of redo it a little bit because some things don't work visually for me, but that was just my process. I wouldn't call myself a professional writer by any means, but I'm just trying it because it's a book that I created and I had an idea of it, so why not? It's like, I'm going to do it. No one else knows it better than I do, so I'm going to try it. And I have friends that are writers that would give me input. They're like, oh yeah, you need to fix this. This doesn't make sense, or whatever. So I get that input to help me improve as I go along.

Raphael Harry [01:27:49]:

So what advice will you give to a procrastinator like myself to get to start his comic book? To get his comic book started.

Kenny Wong [01:28:01]:

You just got to do it. There's no secret. There's no secret to it, because now that I am really doing it, in the beginning, it was hard. I was progressing into it. But the moment I finally understood it and it is what it is, you have to just sit down and you got to force yourself to do it. It has to be thousands and thousands of hours of muscle memory and discipline and focus that you put into yourself. I think it started with me when I had knee surgery and I couldn't go anywhere. So I would wake up in the morning and on my crutches, I would kind of, like, hobble my way into the coffee shop. And it started with me just bringing a sketchbook, sitting at the coffee shop, ordering my tea, and I'll just draw in my sketchbook for what, 20 minutes, 30 minutes? And I did that every day for a whole month before it turned out to be the second month. I drew for 40 minutes, fourth month, an hour, and then all of a sudden, an hour, 2 hours, 5 hours, a whole day. It became ingrained in me. And I learned to discipline myself to sit down, do it, and at the end of the day, now it's just so.

Raphael Harry [01:29:36]:

Second nature.

Kenny Wong [01:29:37]:

Yeah, second nature to just draw for me because I train myself to do that, so I don't have any excuses. And if I don't draw, I feel like I'm unproductive.

Raphael Harry [01:29:52]:

Yeah. That's the discipline I need to discipline myself to get there.

Kenny Wong [01:29:56]:

And also, the other thing that helps me more than this is my personal thing. When you have friends that are professional artists that you've shown your work, and then they give you advice on how to do better, you walk away from it. And I keep working on my sketchbook. And if I don't see, say one of them for a whole year. And he's like, oh, when I see you, I better look at your sketchbook and see some improvement I put in my head. Don't disappoint them. I'm going to work hard.

Raphael Harry [01:30:25]:

Okay, that's good. Friends, they hold you accountable.

Kenny Wong [01:30:29]:

Yeah.

Raphael Harry [01:30:30]:

That's important. That question disappeared. I had a question I thought I'd lined up smoothly, but I can catch it back. So I'll move on to the other good stuff that I had in mind. So you're born in Brooklyn, you're in the creative spaces, and it's all good. We've talked about some great we've had some great stories. We've gone all the way to the Taiwanese, Hong Kong, Japan. We've gone quite far. We've gone far places. But there's one thing we haven't touched on, one very important part of being a Brooklyn knight that we haven't touched on, and it's about cuisine. So what's your favorite? Go to cuisine. Yeah. You got to betray somebody, obviously. What's that? Number one right now? Who's your favorite number-one go-to cuisine?

Kenny Wong [01:31:41]:

I can tell you what's not my favorite cuisine.

Raphael Harry [01:31:44]:

What's not? Is that betrayal? Somebody going to start writing and say he's not one of us.

Kenny Wong [01:31:50]:

My friends already joke, you're not Chinese. You don't like Chinese food that much.

Raphael Harry [01:31:56]:

Oh, someone's going to start writing. Are you sure that's his name?

Kenny Wong [01:32:01]:

I eat Chinese food from time to time. But because you grew up with it all your life and that's all you know, and then you're kind of used.

Raphael Harry [01:32:09]:

To it, that's like me with Nigerian food. That's why I love New York. I get food from everywhere. Nigerian can't be my mean, I still love Nigerian food, but I'm like, I.

Kenny Wong [01:32:25]:

Gotta go eat foods I love.

Raphael Harry [01:32:33]:

I'll give you all his emails so you can send your angry letters just in case.

Kenny Wong [01:32:38]:

I still have to go to Japan. I really want to go to Japan so badly.

Raphael Harry [01:32:41]:

You haven't been there?

Kenny Wong [01:32:42]:

No.

Raphael Harry [01:32:43]:

Oh, that was a surprise.

Kenny Wong [01:32:44]:

So Japan and France are my two go-to places right now. Because right now, in terms of the artistic creative influences, japan is there and now.

Raphael Harry [01:32:59]:

And those are two big cinema spots, too, when it comes to film.

Kenny Wong [01:33:04]:

Film, photography.

Raphael Harry [01:33:05]:

Photography, yes, art.

Kenny Wong [01:33:07]:

And there's a certain level of art standard for me when I look at the people who make this stuff, where I was like, it makes you feel like, okay, you cannot be lazy.

Raphael Harry [01:33:22]:

Yeah, you got you, got you. Now it's my turn to say, just do it.

Kenny Wong [01:33:26]:

Yeah.

Raphael Harry [01:33:31]:

Man, that's beautiful, man, that's beautiful. Yeah. I believe in you. You do it. So do you have any future upcoming projects aside from your comic book? Are you allowed to say your comic book title?

Kenny Wong [01:33:42]:

I can say. I'm working on "People Die" with Dan, Pino, and Joe. I can't really talk too much about that, but it's close to the end of the stage of being finished. I know I've said it a few times, but it's taking a little while longer. My book is also being worked on, but slowly because it's been on hiatus since I've been working on this book. And I'm developing another book with another writer, which I can't talk too much about either because it's still in development.

Raphael Harry [01:34:15]:

All right.

Kenny Wong [01:34:16]:

Because I'm just juggling back and forth between these books.

Raphael Harry [01:34:21]:

Are you self-publishing?

Kenny Wong [01:34:23]:

I don't know yet. I want to I thought about it. I thought about, like, I wouldn't mind putting it out myself. I know it'd be a lot of work, a lot of money, but what is the end goal for me in self-publishing, but be more like, yeah, I just want to say I did it. Whether it fails or not, at least I made the effort to do it. I don't know. I really can't say. It's too early right now because I'm still trying to just finish it.

Raphael Harry [01:35:00]:

That's one thing at a time. Yeah. All right, so any other upcoming projects aside from the books that you can share right now?

Kenny Wong [01:35:12]:

Nothing.

Raphael Harry [01:35:13]:

All right, so final question. What would you like to leave the audience with your freestyle moment?

Kenny Wong [01:35:24]:

The audience, I hope that they like my work, and for the people that have followed my work and are listening, I'm really appreciative and thankful for the support that I've been getting because I never thought that I would get the type of reception that I did. It's a bit nerve-wracking because I'm not used to it. I'm the type of person that doesn't like to have any attention or focus, which is weird, but it comes with a territory too. I work in film and I work in art, but it's just nice to see that people look at it and like, oh, this is good stuff.

Raphael Harry [01:36:09]:

It is great stuff. Like I said, my kid looks at you. If she could watch a whole video of you sketching without being like, I'm not interested, she was like, wow, that's good, that's good. And I'm, like, waiting for her, like, okay, lose interest and bounce. Let me keep watching. And she was still like, that's really good. You're a four-year-old. You're going to keep watching this with me. You're not going to run away. And she's still staring. I'm like, okay, she can recognize. Greatness. You got a four-year-old Brooklyn knight's attention then.

Kenny Wong [01:36:44]:

Yeah, I guess those are the things that make it worth it, right? It's better than big recognition or any kind of success. It's more about the fact that, as you said, a child can look at him like, oh, wow, I want to just keep staring at this. And then it's how I felt when I first got influenced by looking at art. I couldn't stop looking, and I was obsessed. And to see someone else feel that way about my work kind of comes full circle and makes me feel I can't describe the feeling, but you know what I mean.

Raphael Harry [01:37:21]:

Yeah.

Kenny Wong [01:37:21]:

It's a beautiful feeling, and it's very communal, I guess you could say. Yes, communal. And the art community, to me, of the people that I've met and become friends with and have lent me guidance and also some sort of support.

Raphael Harry [01:37:41]:

I'd.

Kenny Wong [01:37:41]:

Hate to use that word. Do I want to use that word? I don't want to use that word because everyone says it's like, oh, I'm so humbled, but I'm super grateful for it.

Raphael Harry [01:37:54]:

Yeah, well, as someone who's seen your work up close, and it's one of my cherished possessions at home, I love it, and thank you. You deserve all the praise.

Kenny Wong [01:38:07]:

Thank you.

Raphael Harry [01:38:11]:

If you want to scream and if you want to be egoistic, I don't care, but you deserve the flowers.

Kenny Wong [01:38:20]:

I don't want to ego.

Raphael Harry [01:38:23]:

I'm the guy who gets to I get to be the jet lane leader weapon. For right now. I can't fight for anything, but it's okay. Please let the audience know where they can find you and your work.

Kenny Wong [01:38:34]:

They can find me on my Instagram because I'm most active there posting stuff. Gengadras at Instagram. Gengadraws. And I'm pretty consistent in what I share with my work there.

Raphael Harry [01:38:52]:

And I will have that in the show notes. And, yeah, I'll post that on the show notes. And, yeah, go out there, check his work out, and support you. Love it. It's one of the best Instagram accounts you can follow. Sometimes you just watch the sketch happening live and therapeutic. Therapeutic. So, yeah, it's a great time. So, once again, thank you for coming to the show. I forgot how to say thank you. I used to know how to say thank you in Mandarin and Cantonese.

Kenny Wong [01:39:27]:

You're talking to the worst Chinese person. Don't forget.

Raphael Harry [01:39:29]:

Yeah, it's okay. My in-laws are Cantonese, but on my side, it's, mbana that's how we say thank you. And my wife is Dankushin, so that works.

Kenny Wong [01:39:42]:

Villain Dank.

Raphael Harry [01:39:43]:

Yeah. Villen Dank. See? You're good. You're good.

Kenny Wong [01:39:46]:

My time in Germany.

Raphael Harry [01:39:47]:

Yeah. My level.

Kenny Wong [01:39:49]:

That's all right.

Raphael Harry [01:39:55]:

Yeah. Cheshire. See, that's all good. It's a world podcast. So thank you all for listening. Keep the love coming in. See you all at the next episode, next week, probably. And yeah, don't forget to, like, share. Keep the support. Five-star reviews. What else? Buy merch. You know, all the good stuff to do. Join Patreon if you can. Thanks for listening to White Label American. If you enjoyed the show, please give a five-star review on your favorite podcast app. You can follow the show on all social media platforms. Visit the White Label American website for links, donations, episodes, feedback, guests, match, and newsletter. Don't forget to download the free White Label American app on the Google Play store. Well and Apple, coming soon. Thank you for the privilege of your company.